Why Adam's Sin Became the Downfall for Us All

[Deeje]

I think what you mean to say is that there's no afterlife mentioned in the Tanach. But there certainly was a belief in an afterlife. The Oral Tradition is just as ancient as The Written one, and there we have references to the afterlife.

Is there a reason why the two do not agree on this point? If you had a choice to believe God's word or the words of flawed human interpretations of it, which would you choose, given their track record? Which would be more reliable in your opinion?

That's the problem with translations - things get lost. The God-given soul, the Neshama, is eternal. The animalistic driving force which provides a semblance of life, the Nefesh, is not eternal.

In Genesis 2:7, "Nĕshamah" is used to describe the "breath" of life....this 'spirit' from God animated the man and he "became" a living, breathing "soul". That soul (man) originally had access to the "tree of life" and technically could have lived forever in his mortal flesh.....so why would God implant something in man that could survive death? Would that not negate everything that death was for?....it was after all a punishment. There was no higher penalty under Israel's law. Why would God undo the penalty and allow that person to live somewhere else? The Bible never speaks about such things.

A careful study of the Scriptures reveals that the word nesha·mahʹ never conveyed the meaning of something that departed from the body at death; it simply refers to the breathing process or a breathing creature, man or animal....unless Jews believe that animals exist in this spirit realm where the 'afterlife' is lived? Do they?

The Greek equivalent of "nephesh" is "psy·kheʹ" . Which we use in English to describe things of the conscious mind....Psychology...psychiatry....psychoactive...?
What happens when living things stop breathing....? The first thing to die is the brain cells....unconsciousness usually precedes death.

Interestingly, the Greek equivalent of "nesha·mahʹ" and "ruʹach" (which I believe are closely related in meaning) is "pneuʹma" from which we get the English words "pneumatic" or "pneumonia", pertaining to air or lungs...breathing.
Isn't what happens at death, the opposite of what happens when we are born?

If you believe that we have this shadowy thing inside us that leaves when we die, where did it come from in the first place? Can you provide a scripture? All Adam was told was that he would return to the dust.....he would simply go back where he came from. If I was to ask you where you were before your parents conceived you what would you say? I you go back where you came from at death, where would that be?

Nor do I. I never implied that.

But the source you quoted did.

Isn't it? Agree to disagree then. I still recommend you try asking in the Judaism DIR.

Perhaps I will. I'll think about it.

If you believe its complicated, can you tell me what makes it so?

 

[Harel13]

Is there a reason why the two do not agree on this point? If you had a choice to believe God's word or the words of flawed human interpretations of it, which would you choose, given their track record?

Forgive me, but you folks seem to be doing just that...
Furthermore, I think we both know how this conversation will go: I say thy don't contradict. You say they do. And we fall into an infinite loop.

But the source you quoted did.

Please re-quote this source because I can't find it in my messages. Meanwhile, what happened according to some rabbis is that God created man to work. Man didn't work but lazed around the Garden all day, choosing to do so of his own free will. God then moved on to plan B, causing man to eventually (have to) leave the Garden and go out into the world.

There was no higher penalty under Israel's law.

There is. It's called Karet (כרת).

Would that not negate everything that death was for?....it was after all a punishment.

When Man dies, he has no free will, because free will comes from him being half physical and half spiritual. At death, only the spiritual soul remains - no free will, therefore no ability to choose to do good and gain a stronger connection to God. All you have left is what you managed to earn in This World.

A careful study of the Scriptures reveals that the word nesha·mahʹ never conveyed the meaning of something that departed from the body at death

That's not what I'm seeing.

The Greek equivalent of "nephesh" is "psy·kheʹ" . Which we use in English to describe things of the conscious mind....Psychology...psychiatry....psychoactive...?
What happens when living things stop breathing....? The first thing to die is the brain cells....unconsciousness usually precedes death.

Interestingly, the Greek equivalent of "nesha·mahʹ" and "ruʹach" (which I believe are closely related in meaning) is "pneuʹma" from which we get the English words "pneumatic" or "pneumonia", pertaining to air or lungs...breathing.
Isn't what happens at death, the opposite of what happens when we are born?

The Greeks can keep saying what they want.

shadowy thing

Why shadowy? It's from God.

where did it come from in the first place? Can you provide a scripture?

I did mention something, but you don't believe me. You prefer whatever translation that suits you. It's not surprising, though.

If I was to ask you where you were before your parents conceived you what would you say? I you go back where you came from at death, where would that be?

Somewhere in Shamayim, which roughly translates as "The Heavens".

If you believe its complicated, can you tell me what makes it so?

Well, we two clearly aren't in agreement about it, so there's that...

 

[Jos]

According to the story, Adam and Eve (literary archetypes for all humans) committed the original sin of hubris. That is, they took it into their heads that they were God's equals, and therefor had both the right and the ability to judge and correct all they encountered according to their own needs and desires. If you read the story, this what the Deceiver told them: that they were God's equals and that God was keeping this from them by denying them access to the knowledge of good and evil. So they ate of the fruit (took it into their heads that they did possess the knowledge of good and evil, and that they therefor had the right and the ability to judge all creation as if they were it's Creator. And from that moment on when they looked at each other, they judged each other to be imperfect, by the measure of their own desires, and so they felt the need to cover themselves from each other's eyes. And when they went out into the world, everywhere they went they saw that the world was not measuring up to their own expectations and desires, and so they set about trying to correct these shortcoming, by force (because we are NOT God's equals, and we did not create, nor do we have the right or the ability to control creation, as we have presumed unto ourselves).

The older Book of Wisdom in my Catholic Bible states that; "mankind is punished through that with which it sins". Meaning that the consequence of committing a sin is the punishment for have done do. And the consequence of committing the 'original sin' of presuming ourselves to be God's equals, and thereby having the right and the ability to judge all creation (possessing the knowledge of good and evil) according to our own desires, is that we labor and toil our whole lives away trying to make Creation accommodate our desires.

And it seems to me that the story, as understood in this way, pretty much nailed the situation right on the head. That is mankind in a nutshell. That is our most common and original sin, from which all the other sins we commit, spring. That hubris of presuming that the world should be serving our needs and desires simply because they are our needs and desires. That existence exists to serve us, and not we to serve existence. And because we have adopted this lie as our truth, we have placed ourselves at enmity with each other, and with all Creation.

And here we are, thousands of years later, and still committing that same sin, generation after generation. Still insisting that the world exist to serve us, and still killing ourselves and each other, and th whole planet, trying to make it do so.

Why does existence need serving? How could humans serve existence?

 

[Milton Platt]

God comes across as a jerk in that story.

As well as many others.....

 

[Deeje]

Forgive me, but you folks seem to be doing just that...
Furthermore, I think we both know how this conversation will go: I say thy don't contradict. You say they do. And we fall into an infinite loop.

Hang on....if you say there is no afterlife spoken of in the Tanakh but there is in the Talmud, how can you say there is no contradiction? One is God’s word, the other is an interpretation given by those whose word you accept as if it were God’s.
Doesn’t interpretation involve knowing what all scripture teaches in order to make a commentary on it in the first place?

You say we do this too? I assure you we do not. Nothing is even suggested unless it is backed by the rest of the Bible. There is a big picture into which everything fits. Do you have one?

There is a difference between doctrine and belief. One is set in concrete...the other is based on inference and suggestion and open to conjecture. We know the difference....but do you guys?

Please re-quote this source because I can't find it in my messages.

You said....
"One reason I can think of is to limit our time on earth - if we have infinite time, we would both feel hopelessly stuck in a never-ending cycle of work and also may feel that there's no need to hurry and work because we have all the time in the world (based on this, I recall seeing that some Rabbis opinionated that God wanted Adam to sin - because Adam was hanging around the Garden and not working (as is clearly stated in Genesis that God created Man "...and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." - Gen.2:15 - this of course wasn't God's original plan - had Man done his part, he would've stayed in the Garden. But he wasn't - so God moved on to plan B)."

These were the opinions of some Rabbis? (which you go on to mention) This amazes me about the Jewish religion....it seems as if what I have heard is true....12 Jews can have 12 different opinions...and they would all be right? Really? How do you ever come to any solid conclusions about anything?

Meanwhile, what happened according to some rabbis is that God created man to work. Man didn't work but lazed around the Garden all day, choosing to do so of his own free will. God then moved on to plan B, causing man to eventually (have to) leave the Garden and go out into the world.

Why would God create man in his image and then find out that he was lazy and didn't want to work? Do you seriously believe that? What do other Rabbi's say? Whose opinion do you believe? Is it left up to you?

Man's fall into sin and his forced expulsion from the garden....the cursing of the ground....denial of access to the tree of life....and a murderer being produced within one generation, should surely demonstrate that God did not originally create man with any defects....they became defective due to sin and then perhaps became lazy by their own choices. Trying to cultivate cursed ground was not for lazy ones.

There is. It's called Karet (כרת).

Karet | My Jewish Learning
The information here seems to line up with Jesus' condemning the religious leaders of his day to "gehenna".
This is a cutting off of life...period....eternal death...no resurrection. What is the difference between "sheol" and "gehenna" in your understanding?

When Man dies, he has no free will, because free will comes from him being half physical and half spiritual.

And I will find that stated in which scripture? Man was created mortal, but with God's attributes. He has a spiritual side to his nature, one that inclines him to worship....but the "soul" is the living breathing man himself.
I find your belief akin to Christendom's idea that Jesus was half man half God. He was 100% human....he had to be to pay the ransom and redeem mankind. How did redemption work in Israel?

Free will is the possession of all of God's children, including his angels. None of God's intelligent creatures were created as immortals. Only God himself was said to be immortal. When man dies, his thinking and planning abilities die with him.

Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."

"the grave where You are going"...not just your body...YOU....your knowledge, reasoning ability and wisdom goes with you to your grave.
As Psalm 146:4 confirms...
"His spirit leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost." The "spirit" is his breath, which leaves the body at death, and he is no longer able to think or plan activities in the grave.

Also Ecclesiastes 9:6 says..."Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost" ....Their emotions are also extinguished at death. I can understand hate and provocation being dispensed with....but why would they cease to love when it is God's dominant quality?

At death, only the spiritual soul remains - no free will, therefore no ability to choose to do good and gain a stronger connection to God. All you have left is what you managed to earn in This World.

Wow.....again, where will I find this idea in scripture? And what does that mean for those who did not gain a strong connection with God? What happens if you failed to earn much in this world?

Immortality of the human soul was adopted from the pagan Greeks...it was never part of original Jewish teachings. It is not found in God's word.

The Adversary in the garden said that the humans would not die if they ate of the fruit....God said they would...if humans do not really die, but go on living in another realm, then who was lying?

Somewhere in Shamayim, which roughly translates as "The Heavens".

Does the Jewish view of heaven differ to ours? Is it the dwelling place of God and his angels? (1 Kings 8:39, 43, 49)

I find no teaching that humans were ever supposed to go there in the Tanakh. That idea is not in Jewish scripture at all.
Even as Jesus was leaving this earth and returning to his Father in heaven (as we believe) his Jewish apostles had no idea of going to heaven. (Acts 1:6) That came later with their anointing with holy spirit at Pentecost, meaning that God adopted them as his spiritual sons, to rule in his heavenly Kingdom and to become the "royal priesthood" that the Jews of Jesus' day refused to accept.

Well, we two clearly aren't in agreement about it, so there's that...

Who or what is responsible for dividing God into so many different perspectives? If we all come from the same Creator, whose worship he established, then who led us away from him? What is the Jewish view? How does the Edenic scenario explain this predicament? IOW...what went wrong?

 

[Ayjaydee]

One of the most unfair things we hear is Adam's sin causing us to lose paradise and have all of humankind marked with original sin. That is, we are born of sin not of our doing.

Today, I want to discuss what Adam's sin did. We have paradise which God had created for us. If Adam was able to avoid his temptation, then we would all be living and experiencing paradise today. What was disappointing is it did not appear Adam and Eve was able to hold out for very long.

First and foremost, we find that God's nature is to hate and despise sin. He is holy, so he cannot be with sin. Thus, it wasn't just Adam and Even who was cast from the Garden of Eden, but God the Father himself. He left this universe and Earth and had to return to heaven. He could not stay. This meant we had become without God. Holy guacamole! Is there any way to fix this?

It also meant that Adam lost his dominion over Earth. He had given it to Satan who became "god of the Earth and prince of the power of the air."

Thus, this was a huge problem and the only future we had was a future without God and hell which was designed for Lucifer and his angels who rebelled against God. They had the free will to do so just like us.

I feel no need to fix anything . I'm content the way things are going thanks

 

[james bond]

I feel no need to fix anything . I'm content the way things are going thanks

This is under the General religious debates forum. How does hiding your head in the sand help prevent the effects of Adam's sin? Is there a religion that states something like that?

 

[Ayjaydee]

This is under the General religious debates forum. How does hiding your head in the sand help prevent the effects of Adam's sin? Is there a religion that states something like that?

My head is far from buried In sand. states something like what?

 

[Harel13]

interpretation

Who said anything about interpretation? It's an Oral Tradition going all the way back to the Sinai Event. Two Torahs were given at Sinai: the Written and the Oral.

You say we do this too? I assure you we do not. Nothing is even suggested unless it is backed by the rest of the Bible.

I was referring to the NT.......

You said....
"One reason I can think of is to limit our time on earth - if we have infinite time, we would both feel hopelessly stuck in a never-ending cycle of work and also may feel that there's no need to hurry and work because we have all the time in the world (based on this, I recall seeing that some Rabbis opinionated that God wanted Adam to sin - because Adam was hanging around the Garden and not working (as is clearly stated in Genesis that God created Man "...and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." - Gen.2:15 - this of course wasn't God's original plan - had Man done his part, he would've stayed in the Garden. But he wasn't - so God moved on to plan B)."

I thought you were referring to this. Never in this whole quote do I state that God created Man lazy. Man decided, chose, to be lazy. Welcome to the land of Free-Will, my friend.

12 Jews can have 12 different opinions...and they would all be right?

It's called "Shiv'im Panim La'Torah" and it means Seventy facets to the Torah - each facet representing part of the big picture.

How do you ever come to any solid conclusions about anything?

We do fine. The next term is "Shiv'im v'lo shiv'im v'achat" - Seventy and not seventy-one. Not everything is acceptable. For example, you could have X amount of meanings to Isaiah, but not one of them can conclude that Jesus is the messiah because that contradicts major parts of the Torah. And for conclusions for the Law, we have sets of rules - also passed down from Sinai (being part of the Oral Tradition) - on how to decide what's right.

hat God did not originally create man with any defects....they became defective due to sin and then perhaps became lazy by their own choices. Trying to cultivate cursed ground was not for lazy ones.

You're confusing me: Are you saying that God created Man perfect? Then how did Man sin? Sin is imperfection!

Karet | My Jewish Learning
The information here seems to line up with Jesus' condemning the religious leaders of his day to "gehenna".
This is a cutting off of life...period....eternal death...no resurrection. What is the difference between "sheol" and "gehenna" in your understanding?

What do sheol and gehinnom have to do with anything? (that we've talked about) - The point is that there's something worse than death - spiritual annihilation.

And I will find that stated in which scripture?

Nowhere, to my knowledge (though I may be wrong. I don't claim to know that entire Tanach by heart). If we relied only on the Written Torah, Judaism could die out. So many things that don't make sense on their own...look at Judaic cults that tried to only follow the Written Torah - Sadducees, Karaites - they've died out or mostly died out. Even Christianity had to add many new books so everything would add up and make sense.

"His spirit leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost." The "spirit" is his breath, which leaves the body at death, and he is no longer able to think or plan activities in the grave.

The Hebrew word here is "Ruach" which is not the same as either Neshama or Nefesh.

I find your belief akin to Christendom's idea that Jesus was half man half God

Except most Christians will say that Jesus is 100% god and 100% man. I don't get it. And that Jesus himself is also god.
In man, there's a piece of God. That's the point I make.

Free will is the possession of all of God's children, including his angels

Do you have scripture for this?

Immortality of the human soul was adopted from the pagan Greeks...it was never part of original Jewish teachings. It is not found in God's word.

I find it quite odd that you keep telling me what is and what isn't part of Jewish teachings.

then who led us away from him

It's hard worshiping God and doing the right thing. Man prefers the easy route: Started with idolatry, continued on to other religions.

 

[RabbiO]

If we relied only on the Written Torah, Judaism could die out. So many things that don't make sense on their own...look at Judaic cults that tried to only follow the Written Torah - Karaites, Sadducees - they've died out.

Apparently somebody forget to tell the Karaites that they’ve died out. 40,000 + or - is not a very large number in the grand scheme of things, but it’s not exactly nobody.

 

[Harel13]

Apparently somebody forget to tell the Karaites that they’ve died out. 40,000 + or - is not a very large number in the grand scheme of things, but it’s not exactly nobody.

Maybe not nobody - but vastly far from what they used to be.

 

[PureX]

Why does existence need serving? How could humans serve existence?

By appreciating and respecting it as a manifestation of God. By acting in alignment with it instead of in contention with it for our own personal gain.

 

[Ancient Soul]

A true story.

It is disappointing in that Adam and Eve could not keep God's one command and it caused us to be without God. It's not befuddling when one understands all that happened with being without God. One is we can be perfect with God. No blood is necessary. We have perfect bone and flesh. Thus, what God did afterward had to do with the sin. He could not stay in the new heaven. He had to leave and thus death (evidence for God) came into existence.

God the Father is a holy being. He cannot be with sin. Thus, he had to leave. Maybe it's like an allergy and even a small one causes a grave reaction. Thus, humans were without God from the first sin. These are two of the key points -- God being holy and not being with sin and being without God. Today, we have humans who do not want to be with God, but without God, i.e. atheists.

My evidence is what happened afterward. The universe and Earth is still here, but we have death, i.e. everyone must die and we still have sin. We had so much sin, God had to destroy the descendants of Adam and Eve in order to save the innocents from being killed. Thus, we live only until the next extinction event.

Without God means living without God. Atheism is a religion that purports to live without God. Evolution is a science that purports to live without God. Everything is based on not having God exist. Another situation could mean you live with Satan. You accept Satan. Your life's motto may be:

View attachment 36577

I've only met one person who was like this and his handle, if he were you, would be skwimburnsinhell. That's some kind of handle, if you ask me.

First, Adam received his dominion over the Earth and we see it today over animals:

"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26

However, to have mastery over the animals, God wanted us to learn about them. Not abuse them. Today, we have abuse of these animals and people get upset over this sin.

As for Adam giving up his dominion and Satan capturing it, one has to read the Bible more in depth. However, here are a couple of verses showing Satan having dominion:

"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." 1 John 5:19

This verse is after Jesus saved us from our doom. Shows Satan had dominion:
"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to fthe kingdom of his beloved Son," Colossians 1:13

Still, Satan is very powerful as he wants to hide. He does appear to do this well because no one wants evidence for Satan. I don't think demonstrating Satan's existence is a winning argument. I acknowledge Satan is still powerful and awaits to tempt us and he remains "god of the world and prince of the power of the air." It may be a coincidence that you refer to God as god, but I think you inadvertently acknowledge your master.

For free will, let's define it. Free will means that God gave humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny. Other matters could be important to you and others such as the pilot's, of the helicopter that Kobe Bryant and his daughter were passengers, decision to fly (he had a license to fly in fog) was or it could not be that important such as what color shirt I will wear this morning. We were affected by Adam and Eve's free will gravely. Thus, if your decisions affect your destiny, then it means free will. Can you deny that?

Geez...

Another one who doesn't even know his own mythology.

According to the bible NOBODY has free will on who their "god" will "save" and how he created just to torture thru-out all eternity. As the Christian "god" decided it all back when he created the world in the first place.


Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world

Revelation 20:16 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.