Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Samael_Khan]

The Eternal Covenant of God

What do you mean by that phrase? Is it an official Baha'i belief?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sorry, but there is no significant evidence for the flood. Specs that match some modern vessels might mean that one of the writers knew a little bit about ship construction, but it is a leap of desperation to claim that validates the story when it fails for much more substantial reasons. Why it matches in great detail with that much older story would lead any reasonable open-minded person to question the authenticity of it. And there is so much more evidence that has never been overcome, that needs to be, to establish the story as literally true.

I have no problem that someone wants to believe it. But trying to proclaim it real to others at the expense of valid knowledge is unacceptable. Besides, there is nothing that says that one has to believe it is real to know God.

A reasonable open-minded person, after doing further research, would recognize that there is way more than two stories which speak of a global flood.....over 260, sharing many of the details! And these stories are world-wide, some even coming from land-locked areas, where flooding is non-existent (so historical experience can't be assumed as an explanation.)

Have you ever considered the numerous "Day of the Dead" celebrations, from many different cultures worldwide, most of which are held in October /November, corresponding w/ the time of year the Flood occurred?
References will be forthcoming. Soon.

Goodnight.

 

[oldbadger]

You understand it better than Paul? In fact Paul just continues the teachings of Jesus Himself. Jesus said the same things just in different ways.

No no...... I don't think so!
Paul did not ever tell us a single anecdote or story about anything that Jesus did or said in his everyday life.
Like tghe Baptist Jesus was offering 'Mercy and not sacrifice' which is why they both were doing what they were doing.

Paul was on a mission quite his own.

So if you want to tell us to follow Jesus, best to quote Jesus.

And if you are so upset by and messed up by the watchtower and JWs as you seem to be, why not get counseling to help you? But ranting against JWs will never help you, imo.

 

[oldbadger]

Trial by media will always sensationalize any story about JW's.....we are used to being misrepresented by the those who are only interested in 'selling' half a story....the tantalizing half, not the actual truth.

Ex's usually do the same....present their own twisted story like there is no other side to it.....we'll let the Boss take care of all that. We'll just keep on doing what we do until we are told its time to stop.

Thank you for your balance OB....you rock.

Hi....
You know me, Deeje, I'm not a JW, I just respect the JWs around here and trust them.

And anybody who subjects others to fake news and false allegations irritates me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What do you mean by that phrase? Is it an official Baha'i belief?

The Covenant of God as you know is an Central theme in Judaism and Christianity. It is a core belief for Baha’is. Phrased simply, it is an agreement between man and God. God provides guidance for man through His Manifestations or Great Educators. Man in turn is obligated to follow those Teachings. If man is faithful God will protect us and bless us. If we turn away from Him eventually we stray and falter in our lives. The story of Noah illustrates beautifully and vividly core aspects of that Covenant.

 

[oldbadger]

I brought those up last year on this forum.

They still apply the two witness rule today in cases of child abuse.

Your words say "JW giving up eldership". Does that mean he left on his own or that the congregation disfellowshipped him? Also notice that he only gave up eldership. That says nothing about other things that he does, such as preaching, in which he can encounter non witness children.

Also, have you watched the royal commission proceedings on this matter?

Summary of Royal commissions findings from ARC website:

28 November 2016
The Royal Commission’s Report of Case Study No. 29 - The response of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd to allegations of child sexual abuse, was released today.

The report follows a public hearing held in Sydney in July and August 2015 which examined the experience of two survivors of child sexual abuse within the Jehovah’s Witness organisation, as well as the systems, policies and procedures in place within the organisation for raising, responding to and preventing child sexual abuse.

The Royal Commission heard from two survivor witnesses, 12 institutional witnesses and an expert engaged by the Jehovah’s Witness organisation who gave evidence about the organisation’s policies, procedures and practices.

It also examined evidence from case files held by the organisation which recorded allegations, reports or complaints of child sexual abuse by 1,006 members of the organisation.

The Royal Commission found children are not adequately protected from the risk of child sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness organisation and does not believe the organisation responds adequately to allegations of child sexual abuse.

From the evidence presented, the Royal Commission considers the Jehovah’s Witness organisation relies on outdated policies and practices to respond to allegations of child sexual abuse which were not subject to ongoing and continuous review. Included in these was the organisation’s retention and continued application of policies such as the two-witness rule in cases of child sexual abuse which, the Royal Commission considered, showed a serious lack of understanding of the nature of child sexual abuse. It noted the rule, which the Jehovah’s Witness organisation relies on, and applies inflexibly even in the context of child sexual abuse, was devised more than 2,000 years ago.

The Royal Commission found the Jehovah’s Witness organisation’s internal disciplinary system for addressing complaints of child sexual abuse was not child or survivor focused. Survivors are offered little or no choice in how their complaint is addressed, sanctions are weak with little regard to the risk of the perpetrator re-offending.

Finally, the Royal Commission considered the organisation’s general practice of not reporting serious instances of child sexual abuse to policy or authorities, demonstrated a serious failure on its part to provide for the safety and protection of children.

Report into Jehovah’s Witness organisations released | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

Read page 58 and onwards of the linked file from the government website:

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/file-list/Case Study 29 - Findings Report - Jehovahs Witnesses.pdf

The JWs of Australia follow the laws and legislation of Australia! How they conduct their affairs privately is their own business.

And when asked they presented their complete list of case files for review.

And of all that list only one case was convicted and only one case ended in an Elder stepping down. Stepping down!

I would read the lines you gave me but we smashed this fake news to pieces a couple of years ago....... and I don't do homework on Thursdays.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The JWs of Australia follow the laws and legislation of Australia! How they conduct their affairs privately is their own business.

And when asked they presented their complete list of case files for review.

And of all that list only one case was convicted and only one case ended in an Elder stepping down. Stepping down!

I would read the lines you gave me but we smashed this fake news to pieces a couple of years ago....... and I don't do homework on Thursdays.

How is it fake news when it comes from the governments official website?

Are you saying that the government has a conspiracy against the JWs? And did Jeffrey Jackson, one of the governing body members of the JWs aid in the conspiracy? Because we have video recordings of the investigation which feature him.

Also you are creating a strawman argument. My point was that the two witness rule policy is inadequate when trying to determine cases where child abuse has taken place.

I dont know why you bring Australias laws up, because the discussion is whether the two witness rule is adequate to judge child abuse cases. It is a matter of logic, so the point that the ARC made is valid. It is a point that psychologists world wide would agree with because they have studies child abuse cases.

Present facts please not claims.

If you havent read the sources then you are clearly showing bias. If you present me with sources I will definitely read them because that is how critical thinking works.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The JWs of Australia follow the laws and legislation of Australia! How they conduct their affairs privately is their own business.

And when asked they presented their complete list of case files for review.

And of all that list only one case was convicted and only one case ended in an Elder stepping down. Stepping down!

I would read the lines you gave me but we smashed this fake news to pieces a couple of years ago....... and I don't do homework on Thursdays.

Also. What evidence do you think would convince you that the claims made in the links i referenced is true?

 

[Samael_Khan]

The Covenant of God as you know is an Central theme in Judaism and Christianity. It is a core belief for Baha’is. Phrased simply, it is an agreement between man and God. God provides guidance for man through His Manifestations or Great Educators. Man in turn is obligated to follow those Teachings. If man is faithful God will protect us and bless us. If we turn away from Him eventually we stray and falter in our lives. The story of Noah illustrates beautifully and vividly core aspects of that Covenant.

So I see that in the Bible that God made many covenants which corresponds with who you would consider the manifestations of God in the Bible. So if I understand you correctly, would you say that there are many different covenants but that they are all under an umbrella covenant which is called the Eternal Covenant?

 

[74x12]

And if you are so upset by and messed up by the watchtower and JWs as you seem to be, why not get counseling to help you? But ranting against JWs will never help you, imo.

Wait a minute ... How often do I rant about JWS? Actually, I try to stay on good terms with the JWS here(and other people that are reasonable) although we disagree on the nature of God and Jesus ... That's theology and Christology. What else am I supposed to talk about on this religious forum?

Paul did not ever tell us a single anecdote or story about anything that Jesus did or said in his everyday life.
Like tghe Baptist Jesus was offering 'Mercy and not sacrifice' which is why they both were doing what they were doing.

He did tell a story of something Jesus said in 1 Corinthians 11:23-25. But what you're reading are letters sent to churches. Why would Paul need to tell them stories of Jesus that they already knew so well? That's not what he sent the letter for.

So if you want to tell us to follow Jesus, best to quote Jesus.

I have already quoted or referenced the sayings of Jesus in this thread. Jesus says things that are even stricter than what Paul said. Paul said "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Jesus said,

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

So you can see that Jesus and Paul agree on it. Unless God explains the "mysteries of the kingdom of God" then we won't understand it. It's designed that way on purpose because God wants people to seek Him to understand. It's not because Paul wants everyone to listen to him and only him because only he can explain it. So his was not some kind of Paul centered religion like some people on this forum make it out to be. He was conferring with the main church in Jerusalem and other prominent figures in the early Christian community such as Silas and Barnabas. He didn't make up his own teachings out of nothing. Rather, from the holy Spirit and studying the scriptures and what he knew of Jesus Christ. Then, those doctrines of Paul were approved by apostles because Paul was extra careful about it; since he was sharing new revelations.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So I see that in the Bible that God made many covenants which corresponds with who you would consider the manifestations of God in the Bible. So if I understand you correctly, would you say that there are many different covenants but that they are all under an umbrella covenant which is called the Eternal Covenant?

That is correct. In addition to providing guidance through Manifestations of God there is the promise of a future Manifestation of God who will renew the Teachings of the previous Manifestation, reframe those Teachings for a new era as well as bringing New Teachings. The clearest example is the progression from Judaism to Christianity, from Moses to Christ.

 

[Samael_Khan]

That is correct. In addition to providing guidance through Manifestations of God there is the promise of a future Manifestation of God who will renew the Teachings of the previous Manifestation, reframe those Teachings for a new era as well as bringing New Teachings. The clearest example is the progression from Judaism to Christianity, from Moses to Christ.

Ok. I understand that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ok. I understand that.

Where it gets more complicated is making sense of how other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism and the Baha’i Faith are part of God’s guidance for humanity. There’s a reasonably clear Abrahamic line and a much less clear Dharmic line. You’ll find out soon enough if you study the Baha’i Faith that Baha’is consider Noah Abraham, Muhammad, Krishna, the Buddha, Zoroaster, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh as Manifestations of God too. That raises a lot of questions but its what Baha’is believe.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Where it gets more complicated is making sense of how other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism and the Baha’i Faith are part of God’s guidance for humanity. There’s a reasonably clear Abrahamic line and a much less clear Dharmic line. You’ll find out soon enough if you study the Baha’i Faith that Baha’is consider Noah Abraham, Muhammad, Krishna, the Buddha, Zoroaster, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh as Manifestations of God too. That raises a lot of questions but its what Baha’is believe.

I found an explanation of a similar line of thinking in a Freemason book I read.

The scenario I am thinking of is what Freemasons consider pure Freemasonry and spurious freemasonry. Freemasons central belief is that there is one God and all of us have an immortal soul.

They consider ancient Judaism to be the pure form of worship and i think they consider Christianity the same. I think they consider Islam in that category too. Those are the pure freemasonry religions as outrightly teach the one God and the immortalitu of the soul (suspect in Judaisms case). The symbolic rituals are to keep them pure.

The other religions they consider as teaching the truth about God and the Immortal soul, but the public persecuted the founders for teaching the truth so the truth had to be revealed in the mystery groups of those religions, in which initiates had to undergo initiations to have the truth about the one God revealed to them. The lay people were taught about the true God through Polytheism by the use of symbology. The immortal soul teaching was preserved. So for instance the gods of hinduism are said to be personifacations of the attributes of the one God. This is spurious freemasonry.

So monotheism teaches the truth directly whereas the other religions teach the truth symbolically and the differences in each religion is because the public couldnt handle the truth and had to be taught aspects of the truth through other means. The religions had to be adapted to what appealed to them and only the amount of truth they could handle.

I read this in Symbols of Freemasonry by Mackey (cant remember his initials).

Freemasonry is another group that I study and they ideas are fascinating. But it seems like what they believe as to how this all came about is that humanity went astray in worship and a few people were chosen by God to remain pure and the others taught the truth gradually.

Replace term "freemasonry" with the "true faith" and I think you have an example of how all the religions tie together if manifestations revealed each of them.

 

[Milton Platt]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So who has the right interpretation out of the millions of people, and why once someone can demonstrate that they have the correct interpretation, can thy not simply share it so everybody is on the same page? And how do you verify that a particular interpretation is the valid one, since all claim to have the valid one and use claims of divine revelation (which are unverifiable) or other parts of scripture as validation? Where is the universally accepted yardstick?

 

[Milton Platt]

Oh it's God's fault people don't seek Him for the truth rather than trusting in themselves?

I don't think it is unreasonable to require sufficient good evidence for a claim before believing it. A supposedly omniscient god should know what each individual requires for belief to occur and be able to provide that. If the god does not choose to provide what is needed, there is nothing the individual can do about it.

 

[oldbadger]

How is it fake news when it comes from the governments official website?

Are you saying that the government has a conspiracy against the JWs? And did Jeffrey Jackson, one of the governing body members of the JWs aid in the conspiracy? Because we have video recordings of the investigation which feature him.

Also you are creating a strawman argument. My point was that the two witness rule policy is inadequate when trying to determine cases where child abuse has taken place.

I dont know why you bring Australias laws up, because the discussion is whether the two witness rule is adequate to judge child abuse cases. It is a matter of logic, so the point that the ARC made is valid. It is a point that psychologists world wide would agree with because they have studies child abuse cases.

Present facts please not claims.

If you havent read the sources then you are clearly showing bias. If you present me with sources I will definitely read them because that is how critical thinking works.

Your point?
My point was that the JWs were open and clear in producing all of their records!

Enough. You clearly cannot let go of the watchtower, it seems?

 

[oldbadger]

Also. What evidence do you think would convince you that the claims made in the links i referenced is true?

What evidence do you think would convince you that my claims about the Oz JWs being open and honest is true?

 

[oldbadger]

Wait a minute ... How often do I rant about JWS? Actually, I try to stay on good terms with the JWS here(and other people that are reasonable) although we disagree on the nature of God and Jesus ... That's theology and Christology. What else am I supposed to talk about on this religious forum?

He did tell a story of something Jesus said in 1 Corinthians 11:23-25. But what you're reading are letters sent to churches. Why would Paul need to tell them stories of Jesus that they already knew so well? That's not what he sent the letter for.

I have already quoted or referenced the sayings of Jesus in this thread. Jesus says things that are even stricter than what Paul said. Paul said "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Jesus said,

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

So you can see that Jesus and Paul agree on it. Unless God explains the "mysteries of the kingdom of God" then we won't understand it. It's designed that way on purpose because God wants people to seek Him to understand. It's not because Paul wants everyone to listen to him and only him because only he can explain it. So his was not some kind of Paul centered religion like some people on this forum make it out to be. He was conferring with the main church in Jerusalem and other prominent figures in the early Christian community such as Silas and Barnabas. He didn't make up his own teachings out of nothing. Rather, from the holy Spirit and studying the scriptures and what he knew of Jesus Christ. Then, those doctrines of Paul were approved by apostles because Paul was extra careful about it; since he was sharing new revelations.

Jesus said 'might not'...... That's different.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Your point?
My point was that the JWs were open and clear in producing all of their records!

Enough. You clearly cannot let go of the watchtower, it seems?

A point that i had no problem with. So I dunno why you brought it up.

What do you mean by "cant let go of watchtower"?