shmogie
Well-Known Member
Since you won't look it up yourself, it is Ketcham high school, NY state.They are allowed.
Which school?
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Since you won't look it up yourself, it is Ketcham high school, NY state.They are allowed.
Which school?
So what if we do ? It is absolutely true.I'm sure the gun enthusiasts who like to parrot "we don't need more laws! We need to enforce the ones we have!" will pop out of the woodwork any minute now.
Do you mean the Ketcham High School where the "OMG! Christian Club" was recently approved?Since you won't look it up yourself, it is Ketcham high school, NY state.
I have a hard time believing that.The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths ...
Students have never lost their right to pray. What was struck down as unconstitutional was the long-standing tactic of administration/teacher lead prayer, a clear act of coercion and an implicit state endorsement of one type of religion.
He is all pandering, all the time - all for his own aggrandizement.You think this is a change in behavior?
I do wonder if these students were told to engage in this prayer to test limits, or to provoke a response.It always helps to read the article. What you speak of isn't the issue ..
"Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed."
But isn't it interesting how certain groups' love of constitutional rights seems to depend on whether or not they want to extend those rights to others or to topics that they personally are against.You're basically cursing. Go right ahead. You'll just look like a lunatic.
Right, that was totally the rationale.The US Constitution already protected religious freedom before people decided that separation of church and state somehow meant politicians would burst into flames if they entered a church, or that public school students ought to be completely secularized.
How familiar are you re: Sharia? Sure, we don't want that horrible Sharia law around here, but what are its tenets? And are non-Muslim religious 'laws' OK? Evangelicals seem pretty OK with the Sharia position on homosexuality, for example.What it doesn't protect is religious customs that act outside the common law of this land.
I'll give three examples:
1. Sharia law (because it often prescribes jihad, and because it is a religious law that acts outside our law)
2. Widow burning (this is something that used to happen in India, but it's forbidden here)
3. Polygamy (we don't care that Mormons or Muslims want it, it's against the law here)
Indeed.Prayer should not be forbidden anywhere. Honestly, if you know how to pray silently, nobody can take your right to do so away anyway, but trying to is a gross breach of rights.
Then the school was in the wrong. It's already national law that people can use free time to pray.
I do wonder if these students were told to engage in this prayer to test limits, or to provoke a response.
What possible reason could they have for needed to join together and pray aloud? What could possibly be achieved by this that could not be achieved through an individual praying silently, to his/her God during school, and then going to his/her church to pray in a group, after school? Why is the DISPLAY of prayer in public school so important to Christians?It was in the news last week, check it out.
No, a group of students praying is not allowed. Silent, individual prayer is, only because a method of controlling a students thoughts more effectively has not been found.
The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths to the Oval Office as he issues the updated guidance affirming constitutional protections for expressions of religion in public schools. In taking the action, Grogan said the president will be updating guidance that hasn’t been adapted since 2003.
Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed.
Speaking at a Miami church in early January, Trump hinted that the action would be made official today -- Jan. 16.
"Very soon, I’ll be taking action to safeguard students and teachers’ First Amendment rights to pray in our schools," Trump said. "They want to take that right along with many other ones."
In addition to the rights of students, Grogan said the administration will take steps to make sure the federal government is being consistent in not discriminating against organizations because of a religious designation, with nine government agencies set to release proposed rules.
In amplifying the president’s message, the Department of Education is set to send a letter to state education secretaries reminding them of students’ protected First Amendment religious rights.
President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools
The difference, I think, was the Christians making a display of their prayer, and connecting it to the flag. Clearly the idea was to create an association between "God and country". This seems to be a theme among a lot of Christians, these days. This idea that the nation is predominately Christian. That Christians dominate, here. So they stand up in the middle of public school sporting events to pray aloud, so that everyone else there can see them doing it (and be impressed, or intimidated, I guess). They want to push their religiosity into everyone else's consciousness, and associate it with national unity and control. And it's both offensive to others, as well as promoting an uncivil ideal.
Students were never forbidden to pray in school, but they must do it silently.
They were allowed to go anywhere any other students went. And they were allowed to pray anytime they wanted. Just not out loud, en masse. And they were certainly allowed to meet at their church every morning to pray aloud to their heart's content.They weren't 'making a display' they went there because they weren't allowed to go anywhere else.
I could paint crucifixes on the school building wall because I love Jesus and believe I believe I need to have that emblem to pray to, but it's still going to be considered defacement of property by the school board. Praying to/at a flag sends a distinct message that is antithetical to the separation of church and state ideal that schools in particular have to be mindful of. Why they did it isn't relevant. It's still going to be considered offensive, and an affront to the Constitution and the non-Christian members of the community. Just as my reasons for painting the crucifix on school property won't stop it from being a crime.The didn't 'connect it to the flag.' They met there because it was a handy marker that everybody knew about, close to the parking lot. Didn't matter if the flag was flying or not.
What difference does it make ? It is their right if they choose to ? Why do groups of Black students get to chant, say it out loud, I am black and I am proud ?What possible reason could they have for needed to join together and pray aloud? What could possibly be achieved by this that could not be achieved through an individual praying silently, to his/her God during school, and then going to his/her church to pray in a group, after school? Why is the DISPLAY of prayer in public school so important to Christians?
Once you answer that question HONESTLY, you will understand why it's an affront to the separation of church and state.
Sorry, but the Constitution says nothing about the separation of Church and state, you need to re read (assuming you once read it) the first amendment.They were allowed to go anywhere any other students went. And they were allowed to pray anytime they wanted. Just not out loud, en masse. And they were certainly allowed to meet at their church every morning to pray aloud to their heart's content.
I could paint crucifixes on the school building wall because I love Jesus and believe that I need to have that emblem to pray to, but it's still going to be considered defacement of property by the school board. Praying to/at a flag sends a distinct message that is distinctly antithetical to the separation of church and state ideal. Why they did it isn't relevant. It's still going to be considered offensive, and an affront to the Constitution. Just as my reasons for painting the crucifix on school property doesn't stop it from being a crime.
Good, they got sued. the law worksDo you mean the Ketcham High School where the "OMG! Christian Club" was recently approved?
New York school district reverses decision to reject student's Christian club
They were allowed to go anywhere any other students went. And they were allowed to pray anytime they wanted. Just not out loud, en masse. And they were certainly allowed to meet at their church every morning to pray aloud to their heart's content.
I could paint crucifixes on the school building wall because I love Jesus and believe that I need to have that emblem to pray to, but it's still going to be considered defacement of property by the school board. Praying to/at a flag sends a distinct message that is distinctly antithetical to the separation of church and state ideal. Why they did it isn't relevant. It's still going to be considered offensive, and an affront to the Constitution. Just as my reasons for painting the crucifix on school property doesn't stop it from being a crime.
The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths to the Oval Office as he issues the updated guidance affirming constitutional protections for expressions of religion in public schools. In taking the action, Grogan said the president will be updating guidance that hasn’t been adapted since 2003.
Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed.
Speaking at a Miami church in early January, Trump hinted that the action would be made official today -- Jan. 16.
"Very soon, I’ll be taking action to safeguard students and teachers’ First Amendment rights to pray in our schools," Trump said. "They want to take that right along with many other ones."
In addition to the rights of students, Grogan said the administration will take steps to make sure the federal government is being consistent in not discriminating against organizations because of a religious designation, with nine government agencies set to release proposed rules.
In amplifying the president’s message, the Department of Education is set to send a letter to state education secretaries reminding them of students’ protected First Amendment religious rights.
President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools
But they were allowed. What they were not allowed to do is make a spectacle of their prayer. And that's exactly what they DID to do. That's what a lot of Christians seem to want to do, these days.The whole point of the example was...that they were NOT allowed to do so.
And I gave you some very good reasons why, but you aren't considering those. A school is publicly own property, and is under no obligation to provide meeting places for students or anyone else outside the bounds of their educational mandate. To do so is a privilege being offered on behalf of the whole community (that pays for the facility). So if some members of the community object to this extended privilege, then it should and will logically be revoked, as after all, praying is not what the community pays for the school to facilitate.Many other student groups met 'by the flagpole.' It was a standard meeting place for field trips, clubs, etc., However, this particular group was not allowed to meet there.