Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

[TagliatelliMonster]

What would one do otherwise, please?
Regards

I'll use a forklift, you'll ask god for help.

I'll be moving the box, and you'll just sit there.

 

[England my lionheart]

Then please let us know reasonable "signs" from which one could know distinctly that a "book" or a "chapter" or a "passage" or a "sentence" is from G-d and not written by a human being.
That may help in the issue. Right, please?

Regards

Sure,the god should speak to everyone and not to just one person and reveal the book to everyone simultaneously.

 

[stvdv]

"Muslims need to differentiate between the sin and the sinner. We wholeheartedly condemn disbelief and disapprove it yet we do not hate the disbeliever and we do not banish him. We rather look at him with the eyes of mercy and compassion and pray for his guidance and his return back to the way of His Lord the Almighty.
dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=738&CategoryID=6"

I will like to amend the passage thus: "Muslims need to differentiate between the sin and the sinner. We don't approve disbelief yet we do not hate the disbeliever and we do not banish him. We rather look at him with the eyes of mercy and compassion and pray for his guidance and look for his joining the way of His Lord the Almighty with reasons, arguments and peaceful dialogue". Right, please? Regards

Thanks for the reply.
Right, your way sounds much friendlier.

For me personally it would be like:

"Muslims need to differentiate between the sin and the sinner."
I need to differentiate between the "sin" and the "sinner". Where "sin" means Adharmic action.
(IMO, "sinner" is a misnomer; as all beings are Atma swarupa lara; embodiments of "Divine")

"We don't approve disbelief yet we do not hate the disbeliever and we do not banish him."
I rather speak for myself, and approve of feelings (beliefs) others entertain; "Freedom of thought/Religion"

"We rather look at him with the eyes of mercy and compassion and pray for his guidance and look for his joining the way of His Lord the Almighty with reasons, arguments and peaceful dialogue"
My prayer is "Samasta Loka, Sukhino Bhavantu" = May all the beings in all the worlds be happy

 

[stvdv]

Then please let us know reasonable "signs" from which one could know distinctly that a "book" or a "chapter" or a "passage" or a "sentence" is from G-d and not written by a human being. That may help in the issue. Right, please? Regards

Step 1: Define what you mean with "God" or "G-d"?
Step 2: Can we make "any" image of God (mental, verbal, physical?)
Step 3: Is it reasonable to look for "signs" to know if book/chapter/verse is from God?

 

[paarsurrey]

I'll use a forklift, you'll ask god for help.

I'll be moving the box, and you'll just sit there.

Is there a verse in the Truthful Religion which prohibits one not to use the forklift for moving and just sit idle doing nothing, please?
I don't find any such verse in Quran. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Sure,the god should speak to everyone and not to just one person and reveal the book to everyone simultaneously.

There are two persons one is a human being, and the other is G-d. One has expressed one's view point and there is no compulsion on one to believe in G-d that He Converses with the human beings.
G-d has fixed another method, is there any compulsion on Him to accede to one's viewpoint, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Step 1: Define what you mean with "God" or "G-d"?
Step 2: Can we make "any" image of God (mental, verbal, physical?)
Step 3: Is it reasonable to look for "signs" to know if book/chapter/verse is from God?

"Define what you mean with "God" or "G-d"?"

Directly told by G-d to Muhammad, not made by Muhammad:
[112:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2]قُلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ ۚ﴿۲﴾
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
[112:3]اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ ۚ﴿۳﴾
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4]لَمۡ یَلِدۡ ۬ۙ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ ۙ﴿۴﴾
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
[112:5]وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ ٪﴿۵﴾
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 112: Al-Ikhlas

Is this definition OK with one, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

That it's a book with text in it in a human language, is pretty much a clear-cut sign that it's of human origins.

Humans write books.
I know of no other entity that does this.

So, if G-d would have had the Converse with Muhammad in an unknown language "other than Arabic" not known to the people around him, then one would have believed:

1. in G-d and
2. Muhammad as His truthful Messenger/Prophet Muhammad, without hesitation, please.

Right, please?
Is that acceptable to every non-believer from Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism/Humanism (whatever their denomination/no-denomination) with consensus, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I asked you the question.
Don't answer questions with another question.

My question was straightforward. It asked what the quran had to say about apostates.

Why don't you want to just answer it?

Quran answers this situation:
[4:138]اِنَّ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا ثُمَّ کَفَرُوۡا ثُمَّ اٰمَنُوۡا ثُمَّ کَفَرُوۡا ثُمَّ ازۡدَادُوۡا کُفۡرًا لَّمۡ یَکُنِ اللّٰہُ لِیَغۡفِرَ لَہُمۡ وَ لَا لِیَہۡدِیَہُمۡ سَبِیۡلًا ﴿۱۳۸﴾ؕ
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 4: An-Nisa'

Is that clear and fits with one's rationality (or with what is practically done in any country in the West in our times), please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe I agree that it is inspired by God but not a direct word. Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say."

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses.
Now I will also quote verses where G-d has commanded Muhammad directly in other styles with the same effect :
[31:30]اَلَمۡ تَرَ اَنَّ اللّٰہَ یُوۡلِجُ الَّیۡلَ فِی النَّہَارِ وَ یُوۡلِجُ النَّہَارَ فِی الَّیۡلِ وَ سَخَّرَ الشَّمۡسَ وَ الۡقَمَرَ ۫ کُلٌّ یَّجۡرِیۡۤ اِلٰۤی اَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّی وَّ اَنَّ اللّٰہَ بِمَا تَعۡمَلُوۡنَ خَبِیۡرٌ ﴿۳۰﴾
Hast thou not seen that Allah makes the night pass into the day, and makes the day pass into the night, and He has pressed the sun and the moon into service; each pursuing its course till an appointed term, and that Allah is well aware of what you do?
[31:31]ذٰلِکَ بِاَنَّ اللّٰہَ ہُوَ الۡحَقُّ وَ اَنَّ مَا یَدۡعُوۡنَ مِنۡ دُوۡنِہِ الۡبَاطِلُ ۙ وَ اَنَّ اللّٰہَ ہُوَ الۡعَلِیُّ الۡکَبِیۡرُ ﴿٪۳۱﴾
That is because it is Allah alone Who is the True God, and whatever they call upon beside Him is falsehood, and because it is Allah alone Who is the Most High, the Incomparably Great.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 31: Luqman

"Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, who Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly, please?
If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
Is there any such verse from Moses' Torah , please?
If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?"

Let those religions quote verses from NT Bible, Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah, Moses' Torah as requested, please.

Right, please?

Regards

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, if G-d would have had the Converse with Muhammad in an unknown language "other than Arabic" not known to the people around him, then one would have believed:

1. in G-d and
2. Muhammad as His truthful Messenger/Prophet Muhammad, without hesitation, please.

Right, please?

No. You'ld still end up with a book written by humans. Only this time in an unknown language.

Now if it would be a book with magical / supernatural properties, then you might have something...
For example, if the text in it automagically appears in the language of the one holding it. Like when I look at it, it is in Dutch. If I pass it on to a french person, the text appears french to that person.
And made from indestructible magical unknown materials.

But then again, it wouldn't conclusively prove it came from god. It might just as well have come from advanced aliens.

See this is the problem.... you are merely asserting the causal link, while you should actually be demonstrating the causal link.

Is that acceptable to every non-believer from Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism/Humanism (whatever their denomination/no-denomination) with consensus, please?

I can't speak for others.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Quran answers this situation:
[4:138]اِنَّ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا ثُمَّ کَفَرُوۡا ثُمَّ اٰمَنُوۡا ثُمَّ کَفَرُوۡا ثُمَّ ازۡدَادُوۡا کُفۡرًا لَّمۡ یَکُنِ اللّٰہُ لِیَغۡفِرَ لَہُمۡ وَ لَا لِیَہۡدِیَہُمۡ سَبِیۡلًا ﴿۱۳۸﴾ؕ
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 4: An-Nisa'

Is that clear and fits with one's rationality (or with what is practically done in any country in the West in our times), please?

Regards

There's more then just that.

 

[paarsurrey]

There's more then just that.

Tell us that which is more than that, please.

Regards

 

[stvdv]

Step 1: Define what you mean with "God" or "G-d"?
Step 2: Can we make "any" image of God (mental, verbal, physical?)
Step 3: Is it reasonable to look for "signs" to know if book/chapter/verse is from God?

Directly told by G-d to Muhammad, not made by Muhammad:
[112:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[112:2]قُلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ ۚ﴿۲﴾
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
[112:3]اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ ۚ﴿۳﴾
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.

[112:4]لَمۡ یَلِدۡ ۬ۙ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ ۙ﴿۴﴾
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;

[112:5]وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ ٪﴿۵﴾
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 112: Al-Ikhlas

Is this definition OK with one, please?

Regards

Thanks for sharing the Koran verses. Reminds me of Hindu Scriptures declaring "Satyam Shivam Sundaram" (Truth, Godliness, Beauty) and "God is beyond words, they are just used to explain the unexplainable". Sai Baba gave some additional insights about God; are below quotes OK with one, please?

Sai Baba explained about God the following:
The basic truth in all religions…is one and the same. The philosophical ideas or practices and methods of approach may vary but the final objective and goal is only one. All religions proclaim the Oneness of Divinity and preach the cultivation of Universal Love without regard to caste, creed, country or colour.

Swami declared that there is only one God, and He is omnipresent. God is both formless and with numberless forms. All names and forms are his. We should therefore not discriminate between one form (or name) and another, but see all forms and names as the one and same God who is worshipped everywhere.

The true dwelling place of God is the heart of man, and the same God dwells in all beings. All the beings in the universe are the creation of God, and there is nothing in this world that is not divine. All are One. When people observe differences between one and another, these differences arise from our feelings of “mine and yours”. Everything we see in this world is an aspect of divinity. There is nothing else other than this. Only One exists in this world and there is no second.

Albert Einstein explained a similar idea as seen from a scientist's viewpoint:
A human being is part of the whole that we call the universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures, and the whole of Nature in its beauty… We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.

 

[paarsurrey]

No. You'ld still end up with a book written by humans. Only this time in an unknown language.

Now if it would be a book with magical / supernatural properties, then you might have something...
For example, if the text in it automagically appears in the language of the one holding it. Like when I look at it, it is in Dutch. If I pass it on to a french person, the text appears french to that person.
And made from indestructible magical unknown materials.

But then again, it wouldn't conclusively prove it came from god. It might just as well have come from advanced aliens.

See this is the problem.... you are merely asserting the causal link, while you should actually be demonstrating the causal link.



I can't speak for others.

"automagically"
"I can't speak for others"

So, one joined Atheism out of
superstition or magic, hence, one is a weird person among the Atheism even. Right, please?
Be happy!

Regards

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Tell us that which is more than that, please.

Regards

You should know.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks for sharing the Koran verses. Reminds me of Hindu Scriptures declaring "Satyam Shivam Sundaram" (Truth, Godliness, Beauty) and "God is beyond words, they are just used to explain the unexplainable". Sai Baba gave some additional insights about God; are below quotes OK with one, please?

Sai Baba explained about God the following:
The basic truth in all religions…is one and the same. The philosophical ideas or practices and methods of approach may vary but the final objective and goal is only one. All religions proclaim the Oneness of Divinity and preach the cultivation of Universal Love without regard to caste, creed, country or colour.

Swami declared that there is only one God, and He is omnipresent. God is both formless and with numberless forms. All names and forms are his. We should therefore not discriminate between one form (or name) and another, but see all forms and names as the one and same God who is worshipped everywhere.

The true dwelling place of God is the heart of man, and the same God dwells in all beings. All the beings in the universe are the creation of God, and there is nothing in this world that is not divine. All are One. When people observe differences between one and another, these differences arise from our feelings of “mine and yours”. Everything we see in this world is an aspect of divinity. There is nothing else other than this. Only One exists in this world and there is no second.

Albert Einstein explained a similar idea as seen from a scientist's viewpoint:
A human being is part of the whole that we call the universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures, and the whole of Nature in its beauty… We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.

"All religions proclaim the Oneness of Divinity and preach the cultivation of Universal Love without regard to caste, creed, country or colour"

I agree with the above colored in magenta being an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Regards

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"automagically"
"I can't speak for others"

So, one joined Atheism out of
superstition or magic, hence, one is a weird person among the Atheism even. Right, please?
Be happy!

Regards

That literally made no sense at all. Did you also read the rest of the post, or only the words you quoted, in some kind of quote mining scenario?


Anyhow, here's something interesting for you:

The Voynich Manuscript

Ever heared of the Voynich Manuscript?

Do you doubt that it was created by anything other then a human?
I sure don't. And we know virtually nothing atbout it. The "text" is just gibberish to us. No known language matches it. The ancient book is a complete and utter mystery both in content as well as origin.

Does that mean a god made it? No.
Does that mean aliens made it? No.
Can humans "reproduce it" (analogous to the ludicrous 'quran challenge')? Heck no!


So, do you think this is the work of a god, an alien or a human?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"All religions proclaim the Oneness of Divinity and preach the cultivation of Universal Love without regard to caste, creed, country or colour"

I agree with the above colored in magenta being an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Regards

It seems to me to be demonstrably false that "all religions" preach this.

 

[LuisDantas]

"All religions proclaim the Oneness of Divinity and preach the cultivation of Universal Love without regard to caste, creed, country or colour"

I agree with the above colored in magenta being an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Regards

You are certainly peaceful enough here in these forums, at the very least.

I admire that, even while I can't in good faith claim to understand your views.

Speaking of that... would you be willing to try and enlighten me at some point about the matter of Oneness of Divinity?

My own religious views have only a very peripheral and accessory role for divinity concepts, which goes a long way towards explaining why I find Islaam so exotic. From my perspective, it is just way too busy with that God idea for anyone's good.

But if I understand a single thing about Islaam, I understand that it insists on the importance of belief in the One True God, and that it abhors belief in false, other Gods.

That is fairly odd to me, since it is dangerous to rely on the accuracy of one's own understanding of any deity. I would expect a serious religionist to put a lot of effort into not falling into such a trap, no matter how sincerely theistic or monotheistic that person might be.

Still, I have at least a general sense of what is meant by the warning against belief in false gods. It is an odd warning to me, because from where I stand there are no "true" Gods to begin with.

But sure, someone who believes that there both true and false beliefs about God would want to make the difference clear, and all the more so if those god-beliefs happen to be important to him. That is exotic, but fairly internally coherent.

But apparently Islaam goes a bit further than that. There are many indications of something that I just don't quite understand. Some form of perception that for Muslims it is important to understand, accept or believe that "God has no associates". Maybe that is just a warning against polytheism? I am just not sure.

I once described the Qur'an as a connection to Allah and got a respectful but firm response that stated in no unclear terms that it is not so. For some reason that specific Muslim, at least, found it unproper and wrong of me to say that the Qur'an is a connection to Allah.

That sure surprised me. I still don't know what to make of that, truth be told, and I tentatively assume that translation challenges play a role into it. Maybe some word for "connection" in Arabic has stronger conotations than I can guess.

But it may be something more theological in nature as well. Perhaps Allah as described in the Qur'an, that God with no associates, would likewise have no connections to Muslims either for similar reasons?

I hope that you can see what I mean. From my perspective, clearly the God of the Qur'an has associates and the Qur'an is a connection to that God. I don't believe that such a God actually exists, mind you, but as I understand the words' meanings it is just fair, even a simple technical observation, that Allah is associated with, at the very least, the prophets tha the Qur'an specifically names, and that it is just as fair to remark that the Qur'an certainly seems to mean to connect people with the God that it describes.

Do you feel like commenting or clarifying any of the above? Thanks in advance.