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Atheism and Faith

PureX

Veteran Member
Also why, in my opinion, beliefs founded on deep conscious experience are not good sources for explaining the nature of reality. These are just imaginations, created from the mind.
"Reality" is a conceptual paradigm being created in the human mind; based mainly on our limited existential experience, and on our generous imaginations. "Belief", from what I can see, is just our unfortunate propensity to disregard that fact so as to blindly conflate 'what is' with what we think it is.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Nothing other than your apparent refusal to answer my questions while implying that I suffer from a concern despite having expressed nothing of the kind.
I did not say that you suffer from this fear. I said 'many people' have this fear, including myself. I and in my 78th year and the day may not be far. Though I am OK now, but I have a family history of heart trouble and I have been a smoker (though not a heavy smoker, if that makes any difference) for 61 years. Other than that, I am perfectly at peace with complete dissolution (body and consciousness) in the elements upon my death. I am a strong atheist and I believe neither in existence of any God nor that of soul. I neither wish nor visualize any life after death. I have had my time. Have I answered your question?
 
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Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Can I go now?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I have several half-baked thoughts on which I would enjoy seeing discussion and development.

1. Doubt may be an indispensable part of faith within an individual. I wrote somewhere once that a least a part of me is atheist as I have moments when I want to believe only what I see (at times almost a temptation to be cold blooded) and as sometimes my healthy skepticism keeps me from being superstitious or hyper spiritual.

2. Doubt may be an indispensable part of humanity. Like the blind men and the elephant, what each one is experiencing must be integrated to put the whole puzzle together, so perhaps it is with culture and knowledge. Even doubting Thomas had a role to play in the story of Jesus, and I assume other religions address the role of questioning and the need of faith not to be blind faith.

3. Faith my also be an indispensable part of atheism, as the the phantoms of imagination are separated from reasonable ethos and as legitimate intuition (arising from vast amounts of study and experience) is separated from gut feelings inspired by indigestion. I hope I do not go too far in saying that some atheists might love to be proved wrong, would love to see some legitimate reasons and evidence for faith.

I'll stop here as these are indeed half-baked thoughts.

Based on my study of Jung and Campbell, I believe that even those of us who see clarity in atheism have at least an implicit myth that they follow. My own belief is that even a modern society has an operative myth which assumes a deep essential belief in something that cannot be proven. That belief is at once common sense and paradoxical. It does not have to be about a supernatural conscious supreme being.

The Modern Myth
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I am in my 78th year and the day may not be far. Though I am OK now, but I have a family history of heart trouble and I have been a smoker (though not a heavy smoker, if that makes any difference) for 61 years.

Dang, dude! You're old! LOL! I'm 71, have been about a pack-a-day smoker for roughly 50 years, and have an aortic aneurysm that could pop anyday, although I'm hoping to have surgery on it in January. Wanna race? :D
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I take it that you mean to ask how we deal with the emotional impact of knowing that everyone dies?

I think that we have a significant advantage over believers in an afterlife. We do not inflict unnecessary uncertainties on ourselves, nor do we expect others to.

Instead, we just take into consideration that our time is limited, and therefore we should savor what we can realistically achieve and be grateful for the precious, irreplaceable moments.

Sometimes we are asked "what is the point" if there is no expectation of an infinite life of some sort. But there is no particular reason to expect or even want infinity.

Maybe both the expectation of an afterlife and the lack of such an expectation are things that we ultimately get used to? I don't really know. But I know that I am not even very well adjusted for the idea of an afterlife. It actually depresses me - or would, if I believed in that.

Also, I would venture to say that people's long term goals are influenced to a significant extent by their specific beliefs about an afterlife.

For skeptics, that is probably an advantage. We tend to pursue realistic, cautious approaches and to treat our resources as, well, real. We do not mix a lot of ultimately very speculative hopes and dreams into our planning for life. That leads to a lot less and more resolvable anxiety than I perceive in hardcore believers in an afterlife.

I suspect that to the degree that one can wake up each morning and have an ultimately hopeful and even optimistic attitude about the day one can find the idea of an afterlife as surpufluous. To the extent that one wakes up and anticipates suffering and disappointment one will find comfort in another life.

This, in turn, is determined, perhaps, by whether the individual lives in a culture that finds and promotes safety for its members. Disruption of a culture by unfriendly outside influences disturbs this safety. Also a culture afraid to openly exchange ideas or even members is a sign of a culture which promotes a lack of safety.

So to the extent that human cultures become more open to each other, find safety and prosperity in themselves and are not subject to disturbance by imperialistic intrusions, there you have a people more focused on heaven as an personal experience rather than a future promise.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Dang, dude! You're old! LOL! I'm 71, have been about a pack-a-day smoker for roughly 50 years, and have an aortic aneurysm that could pop anyday, although I'm hoping to have surgery on it in January. Wanna race? :D
Same here, pack-a-day (many Indian packs have 10 cigarettes). I have reduced on that too by smoking half a cigarette at a time. So currently 5 cigarettes a day. Some say that is harmful, but do I care? I am game. :D
Sure wasn't me!
Good, it would depend on the speed and direction of the movement of the observer. That is how we get time dilation and length changes. Elementary.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
  • For the record: You believe stuff to be true, presumably upon the testimony of others whom you deem credible and trustworthy, which you invite me, an Anti-relativist, to tell you about. Gee, me too. The difference is that the stuff you believe to be true is "science" and the stuff I believe to be true isn't.
Can I go now?

LOL oh give me a break. If you'd like evidence for TSR, you can go ask one of the researchers who study it for a living. They can show you the research they've done which is peer reviewed, publicly available, and empirical. The reason I trust scientific experts is because science (you dont need to put it in quotes) is the single best method we've ever come up with for investigating the world. Science is the reason you and I are able to communicate electronically right at this very moment. My trust in any given scientific hypothesis or theory isn't absolute, it's relative and proportional to the evidence.

So what is this non-science "stuff" you're believing that presumably informs you God exists, and why should anyone believe it?

If you don't want to answer that, then yes, you may go now.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Science is the reason you and I are able to communicate electronically right at this very moment.

No doubt about that. TSR , TGR, and the "Big Bang" are not, however, the reason you and I are able communicate electronically at this very moment.

QUOTE="Left Coast, post: 6402824, member: 66371"]why should anyone believe it?[/QUOTE]

I ain't askin' anybody to believe it. Just sayin; it makes me happy and ain't hurtin' nobody. No need to share it when the sharing wouldn't reconcile any irreconcilable differences.

Bye, bye.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
do you believe that Einstein's theory of special relativity is true or false?

I think that a better way of evaluating the truth content of a proposition is by its efficacy in helping one correctly predict outcomes under various circumstances. This eliminates many of the semantic difficulties of using words like proof and correct.
Does an idea allow us to do this? If so, it's a keeper and is added to our fund of knowledge. No need to worry about absolute truth, ultimate truth, objective truth, right or wrong - just utility.

As @Polymath257 recently noted elsewhere, Newtons formulation of gravity has been superceeded by Einsteins, which is necessary for certain applications in physics and its implementation in technology and engineering, but for most applicationns, including sending probes into space, Newton's formulation still works. It allow us to accurately predict that if a probe is sent in such and such a direction for such and such time, that it will encounter Pluto.

Consider these ideas :

  • Empirical adequacy - A theory is empirically adequate, roughly, if all of what it says about observable aspects of the world (past, present, and future) can be confirmed
  • Fallibilism - the principle that propositions concerning empirical knowledge can be accepted even though they cannot be proved with certainty.
  • Correspondence definition of truth - a statement is true to the extent that it conforms to / corresponds with / accurately reflects (objective) reality.
  • Instrumentalism - belief that statements or theories may be used as tools for useful prediction without reference to their possible truth or falsity. Peirce and other pragmatists defended an instrumentalist account of modern science.
So, to answer your question, I wouldn't use the words true or false to describe Einstein's theories. I would say that they work, and are thus useful and should be implemented where they can help.

The problem with defaulting to 'unbelief' is that it's just as irrational and self-deceptive as defaulting to belief without any logical rationale, or evidential proof.

it's irrational to believe something is true if you have no good evidence that it is.

But that does not make it rational to "disbelieve" in it. It merely leaves the question unanswered/undetermined.

I didn't see where you ever acknowledged the difference between asserting that something is untrue and withholding judgment for lack of sufficient evidence to believe, the latter of which is both rational and a good description of one of the best ideas man has ever had - rational skepticism, or the choice to believe nothing based on mere assertion, but to believe only that which is supported by evidence, and even then, only to a degree commensurate with the quality and quantity of available evidence, and always tentatively and with a willingness to adjust one's degree of belief (probable, very probable, as close to certain as is possible, etc.) as new relevant evidence surfaces making that belief less or more likely to be correct.

One might suggest that the principle to which rational skeptics adhere is itself faith-based. To that claim, I would counter that I have ample evidence that the principle is sound based on its results. Rational skepticism applied to the physical realm converted alchemy and astrology to chemistry and astronomy, transforming two useless and sterile faith-based pursuits into two extremely successful and productive sciences. That's evidence that the principle is valid.

Also, rational skepticism applied to daily life allowed us to reject the received wisdom of the ancients such as the Christian principle of the divine right of kings ("Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2, and "Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient" - Titus 3:1) and invent the modern, liberal, democratic state with guaranteed personal rights - a huge leap in progress from subjecthood to citizenship, from serf to free man.

This is also evidence that this principle is sound, as is the progress made in moral theory from "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." - Ephesians 6:5 and "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." - Ephesians 5:22 to abolition and equal rights and protections for women. In every case, we are substituting the product of our reasoning ability for ideas that were offered as fact and the final word - a great stride forward

And for completeness sake, rational skepticism applied to the subject of gods advises us to remain agnostic rather that to believe or disbelieve in gods, that is reject god claims and claims of no gods until evidence justifying one of those positions surfaces.Thus, a rational skeptic should be an agnostic atheist

Incidentally, I notice that you switched from unbelief to disbelief. I propose that the words be assigned different meanings rather than considering them synonyms and having them both mean both being unconvinced (not believing) and convinced that an idea is wrong (believing not). I propose that the former be called unbelief, and the latter disbelief. Two ideas, two words - why conflate the ideas under two different terms?

With only faith you can only tell the truth, where as skepticism only tells lies. Take it for what you will.

Faith cannot possibly be a path to truth. By faith, either of two mutually exclusive ideas can be believed to be true when at least one is not.

And as I wrote above, rational skepticism is one of man's greatest intellectual achievements ever, up there with ideas like justice and using language. Skepticism frees us from the bondage of superstition and received "wisdom."
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
No doubt about that. TSR , TGR, and the "Big Bang" are not, however, the reason you and I are able communicate electronically at this very moment.

I ain't askin' anybody to believe it. Just sayin; it makes me happy and ain't hurtin' nobody. No need to share it when the sharing wouldn't reconcile any irreconcilable differences.

Bye, bye.

Got it, you don't want to share your unscientific reasons for believing in God, but believing it makes you feel good. Thank you. Bye bye.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that a better way of evaluating the truth content of a proposition is by its efficacy in helping one correctly predict outcomes under various circumstances. This eliminates many of the semantic difficulties of using words like proof and correct.
Does an idea allow us to do this? If so, it's a keeper and is added to our fund of knowledge. No need to worry about absolute truth, ultimate truth, objective truth, right or wrong - just utility.

As @Polymath257 recently noted elsewhere, Newtons formulation of gravity has been superceeded by Einsteins, which is necessary for certain applications in physics and its implementation in technology and engineering, but for most applicationns, including sending probes into space, Newton's formulation still works. It allow us to accurately predict that if a probe is sent in such and such a direction for such and such time, that it will encounter Pluto.

Consider these ideas :

  • Empirical adequacy - A theory is empirically adequate, roughly, if all of what it says about observable aspects of the world (past, present, and future) can be confirmed
  • Fallibilism - the principle that propositions concerning empirical knowledge can be accepted even though they cannot be proved with certainty.
  • Correspondence definition of truth - a statement is true to the extent that it conforms to / corresponds with / accurately reflects (objective) reality.
  • Instrumentalism - belief that statements or theories may be used as tools for useful prediction without reference to their possible truth or falsity. Peirce and other pragmatists defended an instrumentalist account of modern science.
So, to answer your question, I wouldn't use the words true or false to describe Einstein's theories. I would say that they work, and are thus useful and should be implemented where they can help.







I didn't see where you ever acknowledged the difference between asserting that something is untrue and withholding judgment for lack of sufficient evidence to believe, the latter of which is both rational and a good description of one of the best ideas man has ever had - rational skepticism, or the choice to believe nothing based on mere assertion, but to believe only that which is supported by evidence, and even then, only to a degree commensurate with the quality and quantity of available evidence, and always tentatively and with a willingness to adjust one's degree of belief (probable, very probable, as close to certain as is possible, etc.) as new relevant evidence surfaces making that belief less or more likely to be correct.

One might suggest that the principle to which rational skeptics adhere is itself faith-based. To that claim, I would counter that I have ample evidence that the principle is sound based on its results. Rational skepticism applied to the physical realm converted alchemy and astrology to chemistry and astronomy, transforming two useless and sterile faith-based pursuits into two extremely successful and productive sciences. That's evidence that the principle is valid.

Also, rational skepticism applied to daily life allowed us to reject the received wisdom of the ancients such as the Christian principle of the divine right of kings ("Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2, and "Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient" - Titus 3:1) and invent the modern, liberal, democratic state with guaranteed personal rights - a huge leap in progress from subjecthood to citizenship, from serf to free man.

This is also evidence that this principle is sound, as is the progress made in moral theory from "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." - Ephesians 6:5 and "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." - Ephesians 5:22 to abolition and equal rights and protections for women. In every case, we are substituting the product of our reasoning ability for ideas that were offered as fact and the final word - a great stride forward

And for completeness sake, rational skepticism applied to the subject of gods advises us to remain agnostic rather that to believe or disbelieve in gods, that is reject god claims and claims of no gods until evidence justifying one of those positions surfaces.Thus, a rational skeptic should be an agnostic atheist

Incidentally, I notice that you switched from unbelief to disbelief. I propose that the words be assigned different meanings rather than considering them synonyms and having them both mean both being unconvinced (not believing) and convinced that an idea is wrong (believing not). I propose that the former be called unbelief, and the latter disbelief. Two ideas, two words - why conflate the ideas under two different terms?



Faith cannot possibly be a path to truth. By faith, either of two mutually exclusive ideas can be believed to be true when at least one is not.

And as I wrote above, rational skepticism is one of man's greatest intellectual achievements ever, up there with ideas like justice and using language. Skepticism frees us from the bondage of superstition and received "wisdom."

You're right about the confusion over terminology, I was using unbelief and disbelief synonymously. Happy to use unbelief from here on out to mean "lack of belief in x" and disbelief to mean "belief that x is false."
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I didn't see where you ever acknowledged the difference between asserting that something is untrue and withholding judgment...
Well, it's pretty clearly implied by the terms you are choosing to use. You are not referring to yourself as "undetermined", are you. You're referring to yourself as "unbelieving". As are nearly all your fellow atheists these days. So I am taking you all at your (chosen) word. And since choosing unbelief (in gods) IS choosing a position, it begs to be justified. Just as choosing "belief" (in gods) is a position, and likewise begs to be justified.

The justification I hear, constantly, from atheists is that "there is no evidence". But "no evidence" does not justify "unbelief". It only justifies "undetermined". Yet almost none of you EVER refer to yourselves as being "undetermined". And in fact, you nearly always INSIST on using the term "unbelief". So "unbelief" it is, but then your collective defense is just plain illogical nonsense. Which I suspect you all know deep in your hearts. Which is why you all are trying so hard to pretend that you're just "undetermined", when clearly you are not. Because being "undetermined" excuses you from having to justify your position.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You've answered my questions and satisfied my curiosity, so I don't have any more questions.
Since you asked, I suppose I'm obliged to say something about "the Paradox" and "relative simultaneity". But, as far as I've observed, there are a handful of folks here in RF that I believe you'd get a reliable, unbiased "mainstream science" explanation from. I'm biased and lack the mathematical skills to dazzle and impress you. So, here's my brief summary of each. {I'll leave it to you to explore them further, at your leisure, if you're interested.]
  • The Paradox of the Light Sphere
    • A sphere is a three dimensional object in geometry. All points in the sphere's surface are equidistant from the sphere's center point.
    • Imagine a sphere of light emanating, in a given reference frame, from a single source at a constant speed C. Obviously (I hope you'll agree), the sphere's "surface" will be equidistant from its "point of origin" AND its source at all times in the source's reference frame.
    • Imagine a second reference frame moving at a uniform velocity V relative to the first frame. In and relative to the second frame, the light's source will obviously (I hope you'll agree), be moving at the uniform velocity V . The light sphere's "point of origin" in the second frame will be fixed and stationary, but moving relative to the light sphere's "point of origin" in the first reference frame at the uniform velocity V
    • According to STR, the light sphere will expand from its "point of origin" in the second reference frame at the same constant speed C that it expands from its "point of origin" (and source) in the first reference frame.
  • Relative Simultaneity
View attachment 34376

If I have made a mistake in either of my brief presentations on the Paradox or relative simultaneity, where is it? If I have not made a mistake, how would you answer the question in the box immediately above?

You are correct in your portrayal of the Light Sphere 'Paradox', but why you think it is problematic is unclear.

In the second example, use Lorentz transformations. In the seismologists frame, the x value for Hood is smaller than that for Rainier and the times are the same. For the spacecraft,

t'=(-bx+t)*gamma where b=v/c and 1/gamma=sqrt(1-b^2). Since the t is the same for both eruptions and the x value for Rainier is larger, the t' value for Rainier is smaller.

So the answer is B.
 
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