Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

[Howard Is]

What does one understand from worship? Kindly give one's own understanding not from a Lexicon, please.

Regards

I’ll make it easier and more relevant.
What is your understanding of worship ?
What are you actually doing when you are worshipping ?

 

[paarsurrey]

Unless your a Muslim one may not agree concerning the certainty of your claim of the 'Source.' I tend to agree with your quotes, but more in the context of a greater universal view.

I am pleased that one has agreed in all of one's posts
#9, #10, #11,#15. Never-mind for others, they are being replied separately.

Regards

 

[Wandering Monk]

Science and Religions are complementary, one deals the physical, material and temporal aspects and the other deals the ethical,moral and spiritual aspects of human life. Both are needed by the humanity. Right, please?

Regards

You haven't made any connection between the Quran and science on this thread.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am pleased that one has agreed in all of one's posts
#9, #10, #11,#15. Never-mind for others, they are being replied separately.

Regards

I do agree in principle, but not from the narrow perspective of any one religion as opposed to others including Islam. The problem is how different religions define the 'Source' some call God, Scripture, Revelation,.and the relationship between the 'Source' and humanity and Creation.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I quoted directly from the source, without any intercessions. Right, please?

Regards

You misunderstand my problem -- I consider "the source" to be the written work of human beings. And I only have their word for it that they got it direct from their source, and not from within their own minds.

 

[Jedster]

"Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the right path." Quran 1:5-6 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Does one agree with the above? Or one doesn't?

Regards

For me scripture is poetic writing, so I have nothing to agree or disagree with.

However, what you have quoted above does not sound like God wrote it, rather someone talking/praying to God?

Surely God would have been more direct and said something like
"Me alone you must worship and me alone should you implore for help.." Quran 1:5-6

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

"Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the right path." Quran 1:5-6 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Does one agree with the above? Or one doesn't?

Regards

Can you answer me in the following line of questioning?

Why would God write words of supplication and worship TO HIMSELF? The passage you quoted seems to be from the perspective of a worshiper of God, right, please? Why would God write that He worships Himself alone? Why would God ask Himself to guide Himself in the right path? In other words, why would God have written the words above that you are claiming He has written?

 

[icehorse]

Which part is untrue, please?

Regards

Remember, you put this question in the science forum. There is only one "science". For example, there is no Islamic science that's different than Christian science. Science is independent of religion. So the verses you quoted might be true for most Muslims, but they are not true for non-Muslims.

 

[paarsurrey]

Can you answer me in the following line of questioning?

Why would God write words of supplication and worship TO HIMSELF? The passage you quoted seems to be from the perspective of a worshiper of God, right, please? Why would God write that He worships Himself alone? Why would God ask Himself to guide Himself in the right path? In other words, why would God have written the words above that you are claiming He has written?

G-d has helped the humans and taught us how to pray to Him. I just gave two verses of the total seven verses:
[1:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾
All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ۙ﴿۳﴾
The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]مٰلِکِ یَوۡمِ الدِّیۡنِ ؕ﴿۴﴾
Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَ اِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵﴾
Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]اِہۡدِ نَا الصِّرَاطَ الۡمُسۡتَقِیۡمَ ۙ﴿۶﴾
Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]صِرَاطَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ۬ۙ غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَ لَا الضَّآلِّیۡنَ ٪﴿۷﴾
The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
This is the whole first chapter of Quran. It is called ummul kitab or the summary of Quran.
Quran is a brief (not voluminous) Word of Revelation and it is its first chapter, the brief of the brief. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

"Alif Lam Mim . (I am Allah, the All-Knowing.) This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; a guidance for the righteous." Quran 2-3 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
https://www.alislam.org/quran/selected-verses/English.pdf

Regards

 

[Samantha Rinne]

"Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the right path." Quran 1:5-6 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Does one agree with the above? Or one doesn't?

Regards

Yeah, that's funny.

Quran: List of Reasons Why it Isn't from Allah

An objective reader would almost certainly conclude that the Quran is less a product of divine origin than Muhammad’s imagination and the circumstances in which he found himself.

Here are ten quick examples:

1. Verse 27:91 reads “For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this city.” If these are the words of Allah, then it would mean that someone is ‘commanding’ him to serve another god. The verse only makes sense if Muhammad is speaking from his own perspective.
(This would also explain why “Allah” takes an oath to Allah in no fewer than seven other verses).

2. According to the sahih (authentic) hadith, Muhammad believed that the sun set each day in a spring of water. As the creator, God would know the truth.
So... whose version made it into the Quran? Muhammad's, of course! (see verse 18:86) He was the one who wrote the Quran - not God.

3. So much of the Quran is devoted to redundant claims and threats about Muhammad’s status as a prophet, yet there is not a single original moral value. Nowhere does it tell men not to rape women or refrain from sex with children. In fact, it gives men permission to rape their slaves and implies that sex with children is permissible (verse 65:4).
Wouldn’t a perfect book teach perfect morality?

4. Despite being a relatively small book, the Quran contains unnecessary repitition. Moses is mentioned 136 times. Some passages of misquoted Bible stories are nearly word-for-word identical (eg. Suras 20 & 26).
Why would God waste space saying essentially the same thing about something obscure when he could have offered clear moral principles about peace, tolerance (or a law against sex with children)?

5. The Quran confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary the sister of Aaron (and Moses) in verses 19:27 and 66:12. Despite tortured apologetics, the simplest and most obvious explanation is that Muhammad was mistaken. This would also explain why the Quran that he narrated erroneously states that Christians worship the Virgin Mary as a god (5:75, 5:116) when they never have.

6. The Quran tells Muslim men that they may have sex with women captured as slaves. Even worse: the passage is repeated in four different places. By contrast, there is not a single verse that tells Muslims that they are to pray five times a day.

7. The Quran says that it is “clear”, but then says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses (which begs the question of why they are there). It says that it explains "all things" (16:89), but then tells Muslims to follow the example of Muhammad (33:21) - without saying what that is.
In practical terms, it is impossible to understand the Quran without references to external sources such as the Hadith and Sira (usually laid out in voluminous footnotes). Yet these sources are often contradictory and almost never agreed on.
Even in the Quran, devout Muslim scholars infer dramatically different meanings from the same verses. For example, most interpretations of 38:33 say that Solomon slashed at his own horses, severing their legs and necks. However, some contemporary translators, including one of the most respected (Yusuf Ali) say that Solomon really just passed his hand over their bodies in a loving way.

8. Unlike the Old Testament prophets, Muhammad narrated petty defenses of his claim as a prophet (and even his own sanity) that are remarkably redundant. For example, no fewer than 8 passages (83:13, 27:68, 46:17, 16:24, 6:25, 26:137, 25:5 and 23:83) say that "Allah's messenger" is accused of repeating “tales of the ancients,” but that anyone who doesn’t believe him will burn in Hell. Why wouldn’t Allah just say it once and then use the remaining space for something more edifying?

Isn’t this more of what one would expect from an overly-defensive poseur than from an eternal revelation of God to man?

9. The Quran says that written copies of the Bible (Torah and Gospel) existed at the time of Muhammad (29:46, 3:3, 3:78) and a great many verses "confirm" that those copies are true (even if the Jews and Christians were later accused of misinterpreting them "with their tongues"). Parts of the Quran obviously rely on the Bible for completeness and many verses insist that the Word of God cannot be changed or corrupted.

Here's the problem:

There are hundreds of New Testament manuscripts that pre-date the time of Muhammad, all discovered at different times and different places by different people. There are hundreds more of the Torah. All agree almost perfectly with the modern version of the Bible, which contradicts the Quran. At the same time, not a single copy or fragment of either the Torah or Gospel from any era has ever been found which deviates in a way that agrees with the Quran. How is that the "true" Bible - the one that supposedly confirms the Quran - never survived in any form, while so many "corrupted" copies did?

10. As mentioned, despite being a small book, the Quran is supposed to be the timeless, unchangeable word of God. Why would God use precious and valuable space on the personal life of one man - the same one who happens to be narrating the "revelation"?

Consider verse 33:53:
O you who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses, except when leave is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse, without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go), but Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth.

That has to be immortalized on a tablet in heaven?

To be fair, I myself wrote a religious text. I wrote it basically as a personal idea of my own spirituality, and edited it several times. Unlike Muhammad, I never claimed it was the direct word of God, but clearly stated that it was the result of studying religions. Like Muhammad, as I can clearly tell, this book went through a number of sequential additions. As in, something new happened, we're going to add it into the book. Whenever I did that, the chance of me repeating (or contradicting) myself rose. When God speaks directly to you, this is unlikely to happen. All text is given in one sitting, and the book is complete without issues. When multiple people are inspired by God, or a book is added to several times, such problems crop up. It's basically like lying, you can't keep your story straight.

 

[paarsurrey]

Yeah, that's funny.

Quran: List of Reasons Why it Isn't from Allah



To be fair, I myself wrote a religious text. I wrote it basically as a personal idea of my own spirituality, and edited it several times. Unlike Muhammad, I never claimed it was the direct word of God, but clearly stated that it was the result of studying religions. Like Muhammad, as I can clearly tell, this book went through a number of sequential additions. As in, something new happened, we're going to add it into the book. Whenever I did that, the chance of me repeating (or contradicting) myself rose. When God speaks directly to you, this is unlikely to happen. All text is given in one sitting, and the book is complete without issues. When multiple people are inspired by God, or a book is added to several times, such problems crop up. It's basically like lying, you can't keep your story straight.

There is no compulsion in the truthful Religion. The truthful Path is for those righteous who seek G-d's help to seek it. Right, please?

Regards

 

[gnostic]

"Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the right path." Quran 1:5-6 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Does one agree with the above? Or one doesn't?

Regards

If following Muhammad’s example as the “right path” I would be robbing merchant caravans, starting wars, and lay siege to town and forced converting that same town that didn’t give sanctuary to Muhammad.

Can I believe in book that committed these deeds, who say he is a prophet of God? Can I follow a person who condone slavery and force to pay tax simply because I am not a Muslim?

 

[gnostic]

There is no compulsion in the truthful Religion.

Tell that to town called Taif (630).

When Muhammad came to Taif before going to Medina (622), they refused give him and his followers refuge. 8 years later he laid siege to Taif (630). When they surrendered to Muhammad, he refused their surrender unless they all converted.

That’s compulsion, paarsurrey.

What would Muhammad have done, if Taif townspeople didn’t convert? Would he order them to be executed for not accepting Islam?

Muhammad didn’t give them much of a choice. He had an army that could wipe them out if they didn’t convert.

Do you think the rest of Arabia would convert, if Muhammad didn’t come to their villages, towns or cities with a large army?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

G-d has helped the humans and taught us how to pray to Him. I just gave two verses of the total seven verses:
[1:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾
All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ۙ﴿۳﴾
The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]مٰلِکِ یَوۡمِ الدِّیۡنِ ؕ﴿۴﴾
Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَ اِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵﴾
Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]اِہۡدِ نَا الصِّرَاطَ الۡمُسۡتَقِیۡمَ ۙ﴿۶﴾
Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]صِرَاطَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ۬ۙ غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَ لَا الضَّآلِّیۡنَ ٪﴿۷﴾
The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
This is the whole first chapter of Quran. It is called ummul kitab or the summary of Quran.
Quran is a brief (not voluminous) Word of Revelation and it is its first chapter, the brief of the brief. Right, please?

Regards

And so, do you admit that this portion of the Quran (this "ummul kitab") was written by men? It is written from the perspective of men, right, please?

The only problem being that you titled this thread with the idea that God Himself authored the Quran, and the only scripture you quoted was from this "ummul kitab". So doesn't it stand to reason that YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD WROTE THE "ummul kitab?" And if you do believe this, then PLEASE answer my original question: WHY would God write these words from the perspective of a worshiper/believer who is decidedly a MAN? WHY?

 

[Howard Is]

For me scripture is poetic writing, so I have nothing to agree or disagree with.

Amen to that brother

 

[Howard Is]

There is no compulsion in the truthful Religion. The truthful Path is for those righteous who seek G-d's help to seek it. Right, please?

Regards

There is no need to seek God’s help.

Trust in your own righteousness.

And be prepared for a world that doesn’t necessarily agree with you.

Also, be prepared to discover you are wrong, and not hang yourself over it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the right path." Quran 1:5-6 by G-d.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Does one agree with the above? Or one doesn't?

Regards

Since you put this in the science and religion section that means that you should have some reliable evidence for your title. Are you going to provide any?

 

[Howard Is]

You misunderstand my problem -- I consider "the source" to be the written work of human beings. And I only have their word for it that they got it direct from their source, and not from within their own minds.

Or maybe they did get it from their own minds, and they also considered their mind a manifestation of God ?

An ultra-narcissist of that kind would probably spin the story to imply an external Ultimate Authority.

Cosmic Gaslighting.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Or maybe they did get it from their own minds, and they also considered their mind a manifestation of God ?

An ultra-narcissist of that kind would probably spin the story to imply an external Ultimate Authority.

Cosmic Gaslighting.

But in our own time, we've seen the sorts of people who actually do make the assumption that they're getting their guidance directly from Ultimate Authority. They are they David Koresh, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite types. And they don't inspire a lot of confidence in me.