Fearing death

[ChristineM]

and your post makes a complete denial of mine?

I think not

Sorry bud, you were the one who jumped in on my post by playing deliberately ignorant. What happened from that point is your responsibility.

 

[dianaiad]

I think it reasonable to challenge those who threaten one with eternal damnation for merely being an unbeliever, especially as there is not one shred of verifiable evidence to support the belief in any god or afterlife.

When my husband and I die we have no wish to have a funeral, just to be burnt up in the crem, end of story,

Funerals aren't for the dead. They are for the living. The dead couldn't care less. They're gone. Whether to a 'better' or a different, at least, place, or to non existence, it doesn't matter. They're gone. What happens to what gets left behind...like the corpse...is utterly up to the people left behind.

Now me, I already have my 'arrangements' settled and paid for, but only because I don't want my kids to have to pay for them or deal with the paperwork. If I didn't have anybody 'left behind,' I'd go your route. However, I DO have kids and relatives, and since they won't have to mess with the arrangements, they can do what they want.

They can do a big church funeral (I hope not) or a grave side service (better) and a family party at home where everybody gets together, remembers how weird I was, and chow down on funeral potatoes. The idea is for THEM, the survivors, to connect with each other and remember me, to tell stories about my life, and to ride herd on the kids. It's not about making some huge religious statement to remind everybody that they are supposed to just throw me (and the memories) away in Friday's trash bin. It doesn't matter where *I* am, whether I'm doing anything, or not, conscious or not, existing in some spiritual realm or not. I believe I'll be busy doing something, but that's my problem.

What happens after I die, to my body and my memories, is the purview of the folks still here at the time. So, other than see to it that nobody has to pay for what happens to my body, I'm leaving it up to them. I'm SURE not going to dictate that they pretend I never existed, nor decide that my life isn't worth some sort of celebration, or at least a family dinner.

 

[Thief]

Sorry bud, you were the one who jumped in on my post by playing deliberately ignorant. What happened from that point is your responsibility.

and you wish to blame me for the obvious?

I did not put you into that parcel of meat

likewise.....I am not my own handiwork

had I the ability to add one cubit to my height
or the ability any hair to be white or black.....

I would not be the aged, skinny old man that I am

soon to be dead

and afraid?...….not so much the shut down

I've been blind seven days
I've known my limbs to be completely numb and unresponsive

there has been occasion of injury
movement at will
but no pain at all

as if a ghost

and soon to be.....altogether

 

[ChristineM]

and you wish to blame me for the obvious?

I did not put you into that parcel of meat

likewise.....I am not my own handiwork

had I the ability to add one cubit to my height
or the ability any hair to be white or black.....

I would not be the aged, skinny old man that I am

soon to be dead

and afraid?...….not so much the shut down

I've been blind seven days
I've known my limbs to be completely numb and unresponsive

there has been occasion of injury
movement at will
but no pain at all

as if a ghost

and soon to be.....altogether

I made a statement. You dived in and guessed wrong, not my problem that you need to waffle to cover your own butt.

 

[Thief]

I made a statement. You dived in and guessed wrong, not my problem that you need to waffle to cover your own butt.

can't do that

we came into this world naked

someone covered my butt

I leave this world naked

and again......I will need the lend of robe
preferably with a hood

and a ring on my finger.....a sign of belonging
or someone might assume I stole the garment

and call me …...Thief!

 

[Ouroboros]

I find it strange that some oh so holy Christians who appear to spend their lives looking skywards and going on about how wonderful it will be to be in heaven with god, seem to do everything they can to keep alive if they are ill. Why do they fear dying if the idea of heaven is so attractive, surely they would like to get up there at the earliest opportunity? Is it possible in their heart of hearts they have doubts about their after death experience?

Personally, I was more freaked out about the prospect of death as a Christian compared to now when I'm not. I wasn't sure if I was going to heaven. The uncertainty if it was all true. The questioning made it more frightening back then. I feel I got the answers that I needed to get peace with the end, but it took a "de-conversion" to get there.

 

[dianaiad]

And your evidence is?

Who cares? This truly IS a dichotomy; a real one. Either there's an afterlife or there isn't one. I believe there is one, you believe there isn't, and frankly, neither one of us has the evidence required to objectively prove it one way or the other. You're going on evidence you like, I'm going on evidence I like, and we've made up our own opinions.

So we are both going on faith here, and either way, I'm the only one who will be able to say 'I told you so!" Whether either one of us LIKES what might be there has nothing to do with it. This has nothing at all to do with beliefs about what happens after death...covers all theories and beliefs.

My OWN beliefs...and they are my beliefs, not 'verifiable facts,' are that we all die, we will all be judged according to the moral truths we knew and observed during our own lifetimes, and we aren't any of us going to be tossed into eternal hellfire because we didn't KNOW the truth. Or....if we were born and raised to be cannibal warriors, then we will be judged according to just how good we were at it. Humanity seems to have some universal moral truths that everybody sorta figures out, if they live in any sort of 'tribe' or group. The 'golden rule' is found pretty much everywhere, and always has.

It's NICE to have more truth, and it is preferable to live one's life according to what actually is true, but hey; we have what we have.

 

[JJ50]

Whilst an afterlife could exist, I think it is more likely that once one dies one stays dead.

 

[Thief]

Whilst an afterlife could exist, I think it is more likely that once one dies one stays dead.

7billion copies of a learning device
each one producing a unique soul
and it all ends in dust?

no one survives the last breath?

not one chance in billions?

and then Man would be a mystery
with only extinction pending

 

[ChristineM]

can't do that

we came into this world naked

someone covered my butt

I leave this world naked

and again......I will need the lend of robe
preferably with a hood

and a ring on my finger.....a sign of belonging
or someone might assume I stole the garment

and call me …...Thief!

Irrelevant obfuscation, but expected

 

[ChristineM]

Who cares? This truly IS a dichotomy; a real one. Either there's an afterlife or there isn't one. I believe there is one, you believe there isn't, and frankly, neither one of us has the evidence required to objectively prove it one way or the other. You're going on evidence you like, I'm going on evidence I like, and we've made up our own opinions.

So we are both going on faith here, and either way, I'm the only one who will be able to say 'I told you so!" Whether either one of us LIKES what might be there has nothing to do with it. This has nothing at all to do with beliefs about what happens after death...covers all theories and beliefs.

My OWN beliefs...and they are my beliefs, not 'verifiable facts,' are that we all die, we will all be judged according to the moral truths we knew and observed during our own lifetimes, and we aren't any of us going to be tossed into eternal hellfire because we didn't KNOW the truth. Or....if we were born and raised to be cannibal warriors, then we will be judged according to just how good we were at it. Humanity seems to have some universal moral truths that everybody sorta figures out, if they live in any sort of 'tribe' or group. The 'golden rule' is found pretty much everywhere, and always has.

It's NICE to have more truth, and it is preferable to live one's life according to what actually is true, but hey; we have what we have.

So where is it? My point is lack of evidence.

And my belief, backed up by evidence is that we die and our constituent atoms are reused by nature. That is truth

 

[sealchan]

I find it strange that some oh so holy Christians who appear to spend their lives looking skywards and going on about how wonderful it will be to be in heaven with god, seem to do everything they can to keep alive if they are ill. Why do they fear dying if the idea of heaven is so attractive, surely they would like to get up there at the earliest opportunity? Is it possible in their heart of hearts they have doubts about their after death experience?

Most definitely...psychologically the afterlife as fantasy is driven primarily by our natural desire to exist and persist and the resulting fear of death as the failure to do so. But belief in an afterlife can have real psychological value so long as it does not promote evil acts in the real world.

 

[JJ50]

Funerals aren't for the dead. They are for the living. The dead couldn't care less. They're gone. Whether to a 'better' or a different, at least, place, or to non existence, it doesn't matter. They're gone. What happens to what gets left behind...like the corpse...is utterly up to the people left behind.

Now me, I already have my 'arrangements' settled and paid for, but only because I don't want my kids to have to pay for them or deal with the paperwork. If I didn't have anybody 'left behind,' I'd go your route. However, I DO have kids and relatives, and since they won't have to mess with the arrangements, they can do what they want.

They can do a big church funeral (I hope not) or a grave side service (better) and a family party at home where everybody gets together, remembers how weird I was, and chow down on funeral potatoes. The idea is for THEM, the survivors, to connect with each other and remember me, to tell stories about my life, and to ride herd on the kids. It's not about making some huge religious statement to remind everybody that they are supposed to just throw me (and the memories) away in Friday's trash bin. It doesn't matter where *I* am, whether I'm doing anything, or not, conscious or not, existing in some spiritual realm or not. I believe I'll be busy doing something, but that's my problem.

What happens after I die, to my body and my memories, is the purview of the folks still here at the time. So, other than see to it that nobody has to pay for what happens to my body, I'm leaving it up to them. I'm SURE not going to dictate that they pretend I never existed, nor decide that my life isn't worth some sort of celebration, or at least a family dinner.

Our children will abide by our wishes.

 

[Kenny]

I find it strange that some oh so holy Christians

To be honest, it sounds like you are saying these Christians are not as good as you are. Could we dispense with this type of condescending statements?

To be a Christian is to know that one is not holy and thus needs a Savior.

who appear to spend their lives looking skywards and going on about how wonderful it will be to be in heaven with god, seem to do everything they can to keep alive if they are ill.

Yes. Many times the ties of those on earth is greater than the desire to leave the earth.

Why do they fear dying if the idea of heaven is so attractive, surely they would like to get up there at the earliest opportunity?

Not really. Again... most people have ties on earth. Now, in the case of my mother, her statement was "I'm ready to go!" as I have heard so many others declare.

Now, if one is a Christian in name only, perhaps they are not ready to go?

Is it possible in their heart of hearts they have doubts about their after death experience?

I'm not saying some people don't have doubts. But I don't find this to be a cardinal sin.. IMO.

 

[Trailblazer]

No but I think they treasure every moment that they still have left

Some do, some don't.
I would not assume that everyone loves this life.
Some just cannot wait to exit this life because for them it has been misery upon misery.

 

[ChristineM]

To be a Christian is to know that one is not holy ....

If only that were true

 

[Trailblazer]

And your evidence is?

My evidence is contained in these books, which support my religious beliefs that all souls continue to exist after their physical body dies.

The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
Heaven and Hell

 

[Kenny]

If only that were true

Well... there are extremists in every sector. Maybe I should have said "Proper Christian understanding is... and I count myself as one who isn't perfect". It's a journey.

 

[ChristineM]

My evidence is contained in these books, which support my religious beliefs that all souls continue to exist after their physical body dies.

The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
Heaven and Hell

A book by a religious funnymentalist about his belief is not evidence
A speculative book about what is unknown is not evidence
And i can say the same for a book by a 350 year old mystic

Novels are not evidence

 

[ChristineM]

Well... there are extremists in every sector. Maybe I should have said "Proper Christian understanding is... and I count myself as one who isn't perfect". It's a journey.

I know many christians and a large proportion of them appear to think they are holier than mr and mrs average, the fact that they are also me or mrs average does not seem to phase them