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Featured Fearing death

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JJ50, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    then you are welcome to believe unvalidated, bronze age writing, me? I take it for what it is, an unvalidated, and often quite horrific book written by bronze age people who didn't know any better. Thank goodness that science has provided many of the answers guessed at in the bible

    There are some who take comfort from the thought of an afterlife and the bible feeds that comfort

    I deny god the idea that s god has a special, invisible place to store an unproven concept called a soul. I am quite happy to know that my atoms will be reused, may even become part of another life or even a sun shining down on new life. I dont dont death
     
  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    but you already are.....an invisible place for a soul

    all fine and well your expectations for the continuance of your carcass

    but I more than suspect......I will see you afterward
     
  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Your opinion sans any evidence whatsoever

    Not carcase, it will be burnt before my atoms get spread around.

    And you think that us supposed to be a comfort???
     
  4. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    comfort?....in the pain of death...???

    I think not
     
  5. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    having suffered.....I could say...
    the body relieves physical pain in the last few moments

    something about an endomorphine reflex
    something like that

    you can still function.....see ….move....
    but the pain is not there

    been there
    did that

    will do again

    but the next occasion might prove.....permanent

    physically
     
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Why not? Not all death requires pain, some us very peaceful.

    However. That was not the point of my statement which was, would you want to spend an eternity with you?
     
  7. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I really suspect that for the greater part of Christian history, a fear of death was probably the last thing they considered. I had listened to a lecture on early Christianity in which they discussed a certain christian figure who kept begging to be martyred to lions. I believe that when I read Tacitus, he gave an extremely early description of Christianity as a death cult. I had read Bede last year as well, and there is even a startling passage where a Christian women welcomes a tumor as divine punishment where she once wore a piece of jewelry...

    To me, I think death means becoming one again with nature. The body and psyche are recycled back into nature, the body becomes the trees and butterflies, we return to the earth that projected us outward. While we are here however, there is no shame in living fully. It's what we are designed to do, clearly.
     
  8. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Given these facts of modern life, would you welcome being alive in an age where such criticisms did not exist? You realize that you are only describing modern aggravations to your faith, earlier Christians didn't work much toward producing arguments such as yours.
     
  9. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure early Christians dealt with similar arguments in every age. The animosity against Christians hasn't changed. (Luke 4:23) (Matt. 27:43)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  10. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Oh, for the love of logic and the English language.

    Belief is NOT evidence. Evidence is what prompts belief. NOBODY believes something without a reason, even if that reason makes absolutely no sense to anybody else.

    I am a theist. I believe in God, and I believe that the religion I belong to is right about Him. I believe this BECAUSE of the evidence I accept: the word of those I trust, the results of my own studies and thought, and the answers to earnest, and honest, prayer. That is evidence. YOU might not like it, but it's evidence nonetheless, and it is that upon which I base my belief.

    When you can figure out the difference between evidence and belief in evidence, you might get a better handle on this whole debate.
     
  11. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware that I was insulting your intelligence. I wrote what I believe. The first law of thermodynamics hasn't got ANYTHING to do with whether there is a spirit that goes on after physical death. It applies only to the physical body...and frankly, it doesn't even apply there, since we aren't talking about a 'closed system.'

    As for evidence...I have already told you that I don't have evidence that you would accept, and I'm not claiming to have any. Therefore the 'Positive claim" here is yours. That is, YOU claim that there is no possibility of life after death, and you claim to have scientific evidence for that.

    I guess the ball is in your court.
     
  12. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    First, that's Diagon alley, not 'Diadem alley.' Shame on you. Second, where in the name of anything did THAT observation come from?

    Oh. Wait....yes, I see what you are attempting to say. Yes, I suppose that there might be someone out there who thinks that Diagon Alley might be there, that there really is a gate 9 1/2, and that somewhere in Europe there is, very soon now, a rousing game of Quiditch being scheduled. For THAT person, the Harry Potter books would be good enough evidence.

    Doesn't matter whether the rest of us think so, though. Don't equivocate.

    Facts OR INFORMATION, Christine.....and facts aren't always facts. It is what we THINK of those things that make them evidence, not the 'truth' of them.

    Think of medical history. For many, many years doctors went on the EVIDENCE of 'humors' which, when unbalanced, caused illness.

    Think of RECENT medical history. In my lifetime people with peptic ulcers were put on very bland diets and told to reduce their stress levels, because the EVIDENCE showed positively that stress caused ulcers.

    Except it wasn't. It's a bacteria called helicobacter pylori, and this was confirmed in 1982 by Dr's Marshal and Warren. Their evidence was solid, but the medical community would not accept it. They preferred the evidence they were taught. It got so bad that Marshal underwent a gastric biopsy to prove that he did NOT have the bacteria or peptic ulcer disease, and then infected himself with it...made himself sick and gave himself peptic ulcer disease. It took that....and finally Marshal and Warren got a Nobel prize.

    As a result, very few people in the USA get peptic ulcers any more, and when they do, it gets treated with antibiotics and voila'....away it goes.

    NOW they are having fights about whether H pylori might actually be a 'beneficial bug.' That is, we humans have been hosting it for so many thousands of years that having it might actually protect us from some gut cancers, for instance.

    So now we have evidence that we counted on....turning out not to be factual. We have new evidence that might be squishy. However, we still base a great deal of faith in that evidence, because we perceive it to be true.

    And it might not be.

    Whatever, It's what we have.

    Oh, Christine? I absolutely guarantee that you base most of your faith/beliefs/opinions on evidence that you would utterly dismiss from someone using that same evidence for religious beliefs; someone you trust told you so.
     
  13. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    that may be exactly what happens
    and most likely will

    I have been posting for years....

    We end up with others that think and feel as we do

    How else to be happy?
    How else to be fair?
     
  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Guess all you want. I have said what is required, you can deny as much as massages your ego?
     
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    How long have you been mocking dyslexia?

    spelling.jpg

    It came from a book.

    And works both ways. Get used to it


    And thanks for confirming my statements


    You guarantee? And you know nothing about me, you must be christian
     
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    So what is the relationship with eternal life and you posting for years?
     
  17. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    a slight adjustment for your reading

     
  18. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Uh....perhaps my intelligence isn't up to your rhetoric, because I don't understand your point at all.
     
  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Understandable.
    i will refresh your memory
     
  20. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry. "Diadem" and "Diagon" are not generally products of dyslexia. But I mock all sorts of things, including, and especially, discalculia, which I have, and misspelling typos, which I am prone to, and chemobrain, (which results in short term memory loss so that I had to go look up how to spell "Diagon" before I dared write it down).



    No. Well, yes, I am Christian....though the majority of Christian belief systems say I'm not. What I AM is aware that EVERYBODY believes what they do mostly because someone they trust told them so.

    Unless, of course, you have personally mapped out the earth so that you know your geography from something other than books written by people you trust, you have personally performed the scientific experiments to confirm your believes regarding science, That you have personally gone to see volcanoes to find out what types of lava they spout, you have personally measured the changing temperatures of the oceans to see if the globe is really warming, you have personally done the calculations to measure the distance from the sun to the earth, from the earth to the moon, and personally walked upon the surface of that moon to confirm your belief that someone actually went there and stood upon it,

    Here's news, Christine: ALL of us, each and every mother's son and daughter of us, have received our beliefs and 'knowledge' of the world, scientific and philosophical, MOSTLY from people we trust, who have 'told us so."

    For instance; you mentioned the "first law of thermodynamics.' How did you come to believe that this was a 'law,' anyway? Did YOU do the experiments?

    Or did you learn about it from a book written by people you trust, and were you told about it by, perhaps, a teacher you trusted?

    Did you do the original thinking/experimenting involved?

    So no knowledge of you specifically was required here. All that was required is an understanding of how all of us get information. Unless you are unique in all the universe and have done all the original thinking for everything you believe to be true, and come up with all those concepts all by yourself, then....

    You have learned the vast majority of what you 'know' because someone you trust told you so. Just like the rest of us.

    And that, Christine, is faith. Which is trust. You trust what others have told you. You have faith in what they have told you. You accept those things as true, and whatever THEIR evidence may have been, YOUR evidence for belief is that....they told you so. And, as I have demonstrated, sometimes 'they' are wrong.
     
    #100 dianaiad, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
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