When was the foundation of the World

[Moz]

Calvin was mistaken. So was Augustine.

Hi. I absolutly agree. Their were few greater distasters in history than for Augustines rubbish to have been adopted.

 

[Milton Platt]

HI. Thanks for the answer but it wasn't very helpful. Wether the story is literal or created myth is beside the point. The author wrote what he wrote and meant what he meant. It is pretty important in the context of the story wether God planed the fall or not. The whole calvinist system of predestination hinges on it for one thing.

If there is a god who is all knowing and all powerful, then he knew it would happen even before there was a world of any kind and chose to not only have it happen, but to put into play the things that would make it happen. Being all-powerful, he had options that would allow him to create a world without it. That means the choice of having evil in the world was deliberate.

 

[Milton Platt]

Ok so you guys think it's a story. Fair enough, but that doesn't really change anything i asked. Wether divinly inspired or written by men the book still contains the foundational stories of western civilisation. Paul, or whoever you think wrote Ephesians, was a highly educated retortition obviously fully aware of greek, roman and israelite thought., my question about his use of the word world is a literary question as much as a religious one.

Do you have an opinion on what the storyteller was trying to convey?

Why do you think it contains the foundational stories of Western civilization?

 

[Moz]

Why do you think it contains the foundational stories of Western civilization?

Hi. There are a series of lectures on utube by Jordan Peterson, a harvard trained physology proffessor who goes through the stories of genesis and show the foundational nature of the stories and how they shaped the west. PEACE.

 

[Milton Platt]

Hi. There are a series of lectures on utube by Jordan Peterson, a harvard trained physology proffessor who goes through the stories of genesis and show the foundational nature of the stories and how they shaped the west. PEACE.

Thanks, not a fan of Peterson, but I get where you are coming from now. The Western hemisphere countries were shaped by a number of religions and other influences.

 

[Moz]

Thanks, not a fan of Peterson, but I get where you are coming from now. The Western hemisphere countries were shaped by a number of religions and other influences.

Hi. I'm not a fan either,at least of his more political stuff, bit his work on the subject of architypal stories is formidable.

It is in the fact that the west leans toward the individual rather than the collective that the Judeo/christian ethic comes into it's own. Yes their were other influences but the foundational tropes of our civilisation are biblical.
Peace.

 

[Milton Platt]

Hi. I'm not a fan either,at least of his more political stuff, bit his work on the subject of architypal stories is formidable.

It is in the fact that the west leans toward the individual rather than the collective that the Judeo/christian ethic comes into it's own. Yes their were other influences but the foundational tropes of our civilisation are biblical.
Peace.

While I don't doubt there was influence, I don't see it as foundational. Merely a component. I think there is a difference between correlation and causation.

I fear I will probably never dig into his lectures on the subject, just not that into it, as they say. Thanks for the info, though.

 

[Moz]

While I don't doubt there was influence, I don't see it as foundational. Merely a component. I think there is a difference between correlation and causation.

I fear I will probably never dig into his lectures on the subject, just not that into it, as they say. Thanks for the info, though.

Hi. The concept of individual sovereignty is pretty foundational to the western worldview and it is rooted in the concept of being made "in the image of God". A concept unique to the biblical perspective and totaly at odds with the other belief systems of the ancient world.
Yes it was collerary, anything that spans centuries by its very nature has to be.
The other competing influence, the Greek philosophers, were surpisingly bibical in reasonings.
Peace

Peace.

 

[exchemist]

Very interesting. I to think it is refering to a group rather than individuals. However i think the question as to when the decision to select this group was made does have weighty impications as to the nature of Gods Love and justice.
Their are schools of thought using this scripture (and others like it) who vehemently propound the teaching that every saved person and every dammed person is forordained 'before the world (the planet) was made". That is the nut i'm trying to crack. Peace.

Yes, but I think the logic for that reading of things is faulty.

If one accepts that God can see the future, then yes, He will know who it is who chooses to believe and who not. However, that does not mean that He denies free choice to those individuals. They can still be free to choose even if God knows in advance what the outcome will be.

 

[Moz]

Yes, but I think the logic for that reading of things is faulty.

If one accepts that God can see the future, then yes, He will know who it is who chooses to believe and who not. However, that does not mean that He denies free choice to those individuals. They can still be free to choose even if God knows in advance what the outcome will be.

Hi. Thank for the exchange i've enjoyed it. I can pretty much go along with all that. Free will must be maintained at all costs.

I've recently watched a few debates on utube feauturing a guy called james white, a reformed baptist i think. I guess that's why this subject came to mind in the first place. As long as the concept of irrestible grace, as they term it, is not invoked then free will stands,. I suppose a collorary of this is the question of once saved always saved which runs along the same lines.
Peace.

 

[exchemist]

Hi. Thank for the exchange i've enjoyed it. I can pretty much go along with all that. Free will must be maintained at all costs.

I've recently watched a few debates on utube feauturing a guy called james white, a reformed baptist i think. I guess that's why this subject came to mind in the first place. As long as the concept of irrestible grace, as they term it, is not invoked then free will stands,. I suppose a collorary of this is the question of once saved always saved which runs along the same lines.
Peace.

Quite. Without free will there can be no morality, no good and no evil. We would just be pre-programmed robots who cannot be held to account for our actions, like any wasp. Whereas the whole point of the story in Genesis is to explain that we do have moral awareness, can make moral choices - and often make the wrong ones.

I have always found the "once saved, always saved" idea repugnant. It seems completely mechanistic and contrary to any principle of justice.

(But then, as you may have realised, my background is Catholicism. )

 

[sooda]

Hi. The concept of individual sovereignty is pretty foundational to the western worldview and it is rooted in the concept of being made "in the image of God". A concept unique to the biblical perspective and totaly at odds with the other belief systems of the ancient world.
Yes it was collerary, anything that spans centuries by its very nature has to be.
The other competing influence, the Greek philosophers, were surpisingly bibical in reasonings.
Peace

Peace.

Abraham, the first Hebrew, walked the Earth circa 1700 BCE. So, Greek mythology was extant prior to Abraham’s birth, and therefore is older than Judaism.

However, I doubt that Judaism was significantly influenced by Greek mythology.

Greek influence comes along very late with the Decapolis cities.

 

[viole]

EPH 1:4 Says that God chose certain ones "before the foundation of the world"
This has been taken as meaning that before the creation of the earth God already knew that the fall was going to happen.

Another view is that the "world" that is being refered to is not the physical planet but the same world that God so loved he gave his only begotten son to redeem. The World of mankind.

The first view puts sin and death clearly as part of Gods plan. The second view means God rather than instigating the fall moves immediately after the fall but before Adam and Eve have children to rectify the situation.
Which is it?

None of them. Obviously.
I would not take these stories too seriously, or too literally.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

HI. Thanks for the answer but it wasn't very helpful. Wether the story is literal or created myth is beside the point. The author wrote what he wrote and meant what he meant. It is pretty important in the context of the story wether God planed the fall or not. The whole calvinist system of predestination hinges on it for one thing.

Well, since He is omniscient, I suppose that He planned it.

Even beginner Gods know that their will be done. So, unless your version of God is below amateur, whatever happened must have been His will.

Ciao

- viole

 

[1213]

I'm not sure if your on the side of it's all a myth anyway but either way thanks for the answer.
So Paul was implying that God knew what was going to happen and decided to act, chosing some for life, before the events actually happened. .

When person knows well people, he knows also what will happen and can make a choice before things actually happen.

 

[Moz]

Abraham, the first Hebrew, walked the Earth circa 1700 BCE. So, Greek mythology was extant prior to Abraham’s birth, and therefore is older than Judaism.

However, I doubt that Judaism was significantly influenced by Greek mythology.

Greek influence comes along very late with the Decapolis cities.

Hi. I think you have Abraham a fair bit early but lets take 1700 bce as our start.

Greek mythology Prior to Judaism. This is so incredibly wrong that i wonder if you were thinking of something else when you wrote this.
The Greeks were not the first in that area. The Minoans and then the Mycenaeans both inhabited the area centuries before the Hellenes.
The first recorded mention of Zues and Heracles are 1300's bce and are contained in the Phoenician myths. Melqart the titular deity of Tyre is Heracles. Their is significant evidence that the stories of Heracles are an echo of the Samson story. And their is no doubt that the Greek myths are derived from previous eastern belief systems not the other way round.

The illiterate Hellens of the 1000 - 800 bce who established themselves in the Peloponnese and Ionian coast slowly re-established the Mycanaen trade routes to the east, especially the Phonician trade cites of Sidon and Tyre. They got their written script from Ugarit, a Cannanite city. You do know that this is the very area inhabited by a functioning centuries old Hebrew politity don't you.

Anyway... Greek mythology was not what i was refering to when speaking of influence on the west. It is Greek philosophy. And Greek philosophy was definitely exposed to Jewish thought through the Persian sources. That is why Plato, and Aristotle, for example, were so easily absorbed into "the church fathers". Many of the underlying architypes were the same. This is NOT contentious stuff, anyone who knows anything deeper than "sword and sandal" blockbusters accepts this.
So by the time the "West" developed... from the 500's ce onwards it was a judeo/christian ethic that guided it's development. The "eastern" architypes were suppressed. That's why the east and west are different after all , isn't it?

 

[Moz]

[QUOTE="sooda, post: 6287037, member: 66031

Greek influence comes along very late with the Decapolis cities.[/QUOTE]

The Decapolis cities were first century bce. The Jews had been under Greek Hegemony since Alexander and the 330's bce.

One of the main things i hear from opponents of the Hebrew scriptures is that it was compiled in the 200's bce and edited by Greek speaking Jews in Babylon under the Greeks. I am sure you have heard of the Septuagint.
Their are accounts of Aristotle meeting Greek speaking Jews in Asia minor in the 400's bce. (Clearchus of Soli).
The Greek thinkers were very aware of Hebrew though and vise versa.

 

[sooda]

[QUOTE="sooda, post: 6287037, member: 66031

Greek influence comes along very late with the Decapolis cities.

The Decapolis cities were first century bce. The Jews had been under Greek Hegemony since Alexander and the 330's bce.

One of the main things i hear from opponents of the Hebrew scriptures is that it was compiled in the 200's bce and edited by Greek speaking Jews in Babylon under the Greeks. I am sure you have heard of the Septuagint.
Their are accounts of Aristotle meeting Greek speaking Jews in Asia minor in the 400's bce. (Clearchus of Soli).
The Greek thinkers were very aware of Hebrew though and vise versa.[/QUOTE]

Except for Damascus, the Decapolis cities were by and large founded during the Hellenistic period, between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC and the Roman conquest of Coele-Syria, including Judea in 63 BC. Some were established under the Ptolemaic dynasty which ruled Judea until 198 BC.

 

[sooda]

Hi. I think you have Abraham a fair bit early but lets take 1700 bce as our start.

Greek mythology Prior to Judaism. This is so incredibly wrong that i wonder if you were thinking of something else when you wrote this.
The Greeks were not the first in that area. The Minoans and then the Mycenaeans both inhabited the area centuries before the Hellenes.
The first recorded mention of Zues and Heracles are 1300's bce and are contained in the Phoenician myths. Melqart the titular deity of Tyre is Heracles. Their is significant evidence that the stories of Heracles are an echo of the Samson story. And their is no doubt that the Greek myths are derived from previous eastern belief systems not the other way round.

The illiterate Hellens of the 1000 - 800 bce who established themselves in the Peloponnese and Ionian coast slowly re-established the Mycanaen trade routes to the east, especially the Phonician trade cites of Sidon and Tyre. They got their written script from Ugarit, a Cannanite city. You do know that this is the very area inhabited by a functioning centuries old Hebrew politity don't you.

Anyway... Greek mythology was not what i was refering to when speaking of influence on the west. It is Greek philosophy. And Greek philosophy was definitely exposed to Jewish thought through the Persian sources. That is why Plato, and Aristotle, for example, were so easily absorbed into "the church fathers".

Many of the underlying architypes were the same. This is NOT contentious stuff, anyone who knows anything deeper than "sword and sandal" blockbusters accepts this.
So by the time the "West" developed... from the 500's ce onwards it was a judeo/christian ethic that guided it's development. The "eastern" architypes were suppressed. That's why the east and west are different after all , isn't it?

Abraham is probably a literary device.. The Ugarit tablets are much older than the Hebrew.

I don't think the Greeks were much influenced by the Jews. They were a pretty small group in a somewhat impoverished province of Syria.

Many Jews in the first century considered Hellenized Jews to be apostate.

I wish you'd check the timelines again.

 

[Moz]

Well, since He is omniscient, I suppose that He planned it.

Even beginner Gods know that their will be done. So, unless your version of God is below amateur, whatever happened must have been His will.

Ciao

- viole

Hi. Well what a glib dismissive comment, you must have expended at least 10 seconds thinking it all through, Good Job.

As someone who identifies as a metaphysic i would have thought that some insight could have been applied. Their is massive difference between, the world as in the Planet and , the world as in mankind. One is outside or before history and the other is within history.
The author, whoever you think he may have been, was a sophisticated thinker versed in Greek, Roman and Hebrew thought. He used tropes and modes of reasoning fully understandable by anyone who knows about the period. He was saying ONE thing or the OTHER.
I know what i think he meant but i was hoping for intelligent dialogue about the subject of the "world" ( Greek word Kosmos )and which meaning to apply.

BTW... your mention of Omniscience is kindergarden stuff. I thought mataphysics was supposed to be a philosophy about abstract concepts. If you think Omniscience means knowing everything then you need to do some thinking on the subject, maybe some reading as well. These are capacities and attributes and not the black and white that your comment implies.

Peace.