When was the foundation of the World

[Moz]

EPH 1:4 Says that God chose certain ones "before the foundation of the world"
This has been taken as meaning that before the creation of the earth God already knew that the fall was going to happen.

Another view is that the "world" that is being refered to is not the physical planet but the same world that God so loved he gave his only begotten son to redeem. The World of mankind.

The first view puts sin and death clearly as part of Gods plan. The second view means God rather than instigating the fall moves immediately after the fall but before Adam and Eve have children to rectify the situation.
Which is it?

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is best not to take the Adam and Eve story literally.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I know that is Abrahamic religions this may sound strange, but the way I understand it(can be wrong) is that before we become human beings we were a part of the spiritual realm or heaven if you like. but because we started to eve sin there(moral decline ) our physical realm was created to we could feel pain, pleasure, sadness, anger or in other words attachments to physical and emotional experiences.
This is a way for human beings to "repay" for our wrongdoings(sins) and until we have understood how we do this we will stay in the human realm as a physical being (human, animal, plant, and so on)

But when did it start? I think the number of years would scare people if they fully knew it.

 

[Moz]

HI. Thanks for the answer but it wasn't very helpful. Wether the story is literal or created myth is beside the point. The author wrote what he wrote and meant what he meant. It is pretty important in the context of the story wether God planed the fall or not. The whole calvinist system of predestination hinges on it for one thing.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If I remember correctly....
The “world” in Scripture always mean people and especially the systems developed by them for living. (James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17)

Earth refers to the planet (most of the time in the Scriptures; some exceptions).

So “the foundation of the world” would indicate what?

 

[Moz]

If I remember correctly....
The “world” in Scripture always mean people and especially the systems developed by them for living. (James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17)

Earth refers to the planet (most of the time in the Scriptures; some exceptions).

So “the foundation of the world” would indicate what?

Hi. I tend to agree that the world here is refering to people so i guess that the founding of this world would be the birth of Cain the first human being.

Although i can find little coberration of this idea out there, most commentaries use this as a predestination verse and put it before the creation of the earth.

I just can't accept the idea that all of this suffering was the original purpose. It makes more sense to me that God dealt with the fall when it happened rather than planning it all beforehand.

 

[JJ50]

It is best not to take the Adam and Eve story literally.

I agree, it is not a credible story, nor is much of the Bible for that matter.

 

[Moz]

I agree, it is not a credible story, nor is much of the Bible for that matter.

Ok so you guys think it's a story. Fair enough, but that doesn't really change anything i asked. Wether divinly inspired or written by men the book still contains the foundational stories of western civilisation. Paul, or whoever you think wrote Ephesians, was a highly educated retortition obviously fully aware of greek, roman and israelite thought., my question about his use of the word world is a literary question as much as a religious one.

Do you have an opinion on what the storyteller was trying to convey?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok so you guys think it's a story. Fair enough, but that doesn't really change anything i asked. Wether divinly inspired or written by men the book still contains the foundational stories of western civilisation. Paul, or whoever you think wrote Ephesians, was a highly educated retortition obviously fully aware of greek, roman and israelite thought., my question about his use of the word world is a literary question as much as a religious one.

Do you have an opinion on what the storyteller was trying to convey?

It is not just a matter of thinking. If one believes that God cannot lie then one has to treat the stories of Genesis as a collection of morality tales. The evidence against them is so strong that it would require a lying God that planted almost endless false evidence for them to be true.


And why the crazy jump to Ephesians? Yes, the majority of critical scholars have concluded that it was not written by Paul. Instead it appears to be written by a student of his. In fact about fifteen years after Paul's death.

Epistle to the Ephesians - Wikipedia

 

[Moz]

It is not just a matter of thinking. If one believes that God cannot lie then one has to treat the stories of Genesis as a collection of morality tales. The evidence against them is so strong that it would require a lying God that planted almost endless false evidence for them to be true.


And why the crazy jump to Ephesians? Yes, the majority of critical scholars have concluded that it was not written by Paul. Instead it appears to be written by a student of his. In fact about fifteen years after Paul's death.

Epistle to the Ephesians - Wikipedia

Crazy jump to ephesians? The original question was about a verse in Ephesians and what that author meant.
It seems that all you are interested in doing is dissing the bible, even though i said that it is irrelevant to this discussion wether the stories are true or false. Their is such a thing as literary criticism. Paul, or whoever wrote Ephesians was saying something by using the phrase":before the founding of the world' i am after thoughts on what he meant.

 

[JJ50]

Ok so you guys think it's a story. Fair enough, but that doesn't really change anything i asked. Wether divinly inspired or written by men the book still contains the foundational stories of western civilisation. Paul, or whoever you think wrote Ephesians, was a highly educated retortition obviously fully aware of greek, roman and israelite thought., my question about his use of the word world is a literary question as much as a religious one.

Do you have an opinion on what the storyteller was trying to convey?

I don't really care what people think they were trying to convey. I do know that religion, especially Christianity and Islam have caused many serious problems over the centuries. I hope in the future all religions die a death.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Crazy jump to ephesians? The original question was about a verse in Ephesians and what that author meant.
It seems that all you are interested in doing is dissing the bible, even though i said that it is irrelevant to this discussion wether the stories are true or false. Their is such a thing as literary criticism. Paul, or whoever wrote Ephesians was saying something by using the phrase":before the founding of the world' i am after thoughts on what he meant.

Fine, the original verse came from Ephesians. Probably not written by Paul, but even if it was so what? Paul had quite a bit of bad theology. It is an error to make a false idol of the Bible.

And pointing out the flaws and errors of the Bible is not dissing it.

 

[Moz]

I don't really care what people think they were trying to convey. I do know that religion, especially Christianity and Islam have caused many serious problems over the centuries. I hope in the future all religions die a death.

IT seems to me that it is "politics and nationalism" using religion as a shill that has caused almost all of the serious problems over the centuries.

I hope that in the future all governments, nations and religions are cast into a lake of fire. And guess what. ... That is exactly what the book says is gonna happen.

By the way, for the first 300 years christianity killed not a single person. They would rather die than take a life. It is when they became the political power that trouble started. Believe it or not there are millions of peaceful non political non nationalistic followers of Jesus on the earth today.

 

[Moz]

Fine, the original verse came from Ephesians. Probably not written by Paul, but even if it was so what? .

It does not matter who wrote it.. . I want to know what it means and what the author was refering to. This can be done with any literature. A word was used and i am interested in what the writer meant by the word.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It does not matter who wrote it.. . I want to know what it means and what the author was refering to. This can be done with any literature. A word was used and i am interested in what the writer meant by the word.

Nt sure we today even will be able to really grasp the true meaning of his/the writer's words. Much because we think different today then they did then. But when Christian cultivates all the teaching of Christianity they might get the insight needed to understand it.

 

[JJ50]

Moz, my three daughters are moderate Christians, the eldest is an Anglican Priest, they are not Biblical literalists, thank goodness. I had my childhood spoilt by extreme Christianity, the evil, 'you must be saved, or else', garbage! I was even a devout Christian for part of my childhood, until the doubts became overwhelming and I lost my faith in my late teens, A BIG RELIEF! I suspect the long dead, very human and far from perfect Jesus might be very surprised by the things that were attributed to him, and the religion created with him as the figurehead.

 

[Moz]

Moz, my three daughters are moderate Christians, the eldest is an Anglican Priest, they are not Biblical literalists, thank goodness. I had my childhood spoilt by extreme Christianity, the evil, 'you must be saved, or else', garbage! I was even a devout Christian for part of my childhood, until the doubts became overwhelming and I lost my faith in my late teens, A BIG RELIEF! I suspect the long dead, very human and far from perfect Jesus might be very surprised by the things that were attributed to him, and the religion created with him as the figurehead.

Thanks for the reply. A bit off topic but that's cool. I can see how the christianity of the world can leave a bad taste in your mouth and make you doubt the truthfulness of the whole system.
It was not always so.
I've looked into this deeply and the people who claimed to have known Christ and those that followed them for the first couple of centuries were truly exceptional people who lived lives of peace sacrifice and love. Take polycarp for example. A man who claimed to know John and to have been instructed by him. Look into the life that he and his contempories lived. Something profound was going on with those people who would rather die than bend.
The moneygrubbing, racketeering and threat of hellfire that is the staple of modern christianity came 3 centuries after Christ and his disciples. PEACE.

 

[pearl]

This has been taken as meaning that before the creation of the earth God already knew that the fall was going to happen.

I think its because the past, future are present to God at once.

 

[JJ50]

Thanks for the reply. A bit off topic but that's cool. I can see how the christianity of the world can leave a bad taste in your mouth and make you doubt the truthfulness of the whole system.
It was not always so.
I've looked into this deeply and the people who claimed to have known Christ and those that followed them for the first couple of centuries were truly exceptional people who lived lives of peace sacrifice and love. Take polycarp for example. A man who claimed to know John and to have been instructed by him. Look into the life that he and his contempories lived. Something profound was going on with those people who would rather die than bend.
The moneygrubbing, racketeering and threat of hellfire that is the staple of modern christianity came 3 centuries after Christ and his disciples. PEACE.

We have no idea if any of those people actually existed, or were just storybook characters.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It does not matter who wrote it.. . I want to know what it means and what the author was refering to. This can be done with any literature. A word was used and i am interested in what the writer meant by the word.

I would not take to too seriously. Think more of it as a poetic phrase than anything else that means "for as long as we know and then some". Taking the Bible literally give one a refuted Bible.