When was the foundation of the World

[Hockeycowboy]

Study notes for Luke 11:50...

Luke Study Notes—Chapter 11 — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I’ll post some more info....

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I’m going to link the results for that phrase found on the JW search site.

It pulled up an article on Foreknowledge.

I see that you are interested in the topic of God being responsible for the evil and suffering in the world?
Here are a few related articles:

Are You Disappointed in God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The following link is from the World Online Library of JW’s, w/ suffering put in the Searchbar. (There’s a lot of subheadings!)

Suffering — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


Take care, my cousin.

 

[Desert Snake]

Moz, my three daughters are moderate Christians, the eldest is an Anglican Priest, they are not Biblical literalists, thank goodness. I had my childhood spoilt by extreme Christianity, the evil, 'you must be saved, or else', garbage! I was even a devout Christian for part of my childhood, until the doubts became overwhelming and I lost my faith in my late teens, A BIG RELIEF! I suspect the long dead, very human and far from perfect Jesus might be very surprised by the things that were attributed to him, and the religion created with him as the figurehead.

Who cares, he was forsaken on the cross, whatever type of bizarre contradictory 'teacher', he was.

 

[exchemist]

EPH 1:4 Says that God chose certain ones "before the foundation of the world"
This has been taken as meaning that before the creation of the earth God already knew that the fall was going to happen.

Another view is that the "world" that is being refered to is not the physical planet but the same world that God so loved he gave his only begotten son to redeem. The World of mankind.

The first view puts sin and death clearly as part of Gods plan. The second view means God rather than instigating the fall moves immediately after the fall but before Adam and Eve have children to rectify the situation.
Which is it?

It has always seemed to me the Fall is simply a reflection of the fact that, as man evolved from the rest of the apes and started to acquire moral awareness, and thus to be able to distinguish right from wrong, it was perhaps inevitable that he would often choose wrong rather than right. This predisposition to sin is what I was taught the Fall really signifies. The Genesis story is an allegory, capturing this insight in terms early people could identify with.

So it seems not unreasonable that God (if He exists) would see this one coming and realise He might need to send a messenger, a teacher, an exemplar of human conduct, to help Man. In fact perhaps a series of them, culminating in Himself in human form.........

 

[Moz]

We have no idea if any of those people actually existed, or were just storybook characters.

No that is not true. While the information about first and second century christianity is sparse it does exist. There are hundreds of extant letters between christians of this era that have been documented.
It is no story that these people would rather die than take up violence against anybody.. That is an example that should be studied and emulated rather than thrown out with the bathwater of a later corrupted chtistianity. Peace

 

[Moz]

I’m going to link the results for that phrase found on the JW search site.

It pulled up an article on Foreknowledge.

I see that you are interested in the topic of God being responsible for the evil and suffering in the world?
Here are a few related articles:

Are You Disappointed in God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The following link is from the World Online Library of JW’s, w/ suffering put in the Searchbar. (There’s a lot of subheadings!)

Suffering — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


Take care, my cousin.

Thanks for the information it was very interesting. Wow that is really a deep source of biblical subects. I will be back there to play some more no doubt.

Yeah i am interested in who is responsible for the fall. Having listened to people like james white debate predestination and election it seems that the majority of christendom believes that the fall was the plan from the start.
The real stinky part of the idea to me is not the fact that they say God predestined some for salvation it is that they also say, using the same rational , that the majority of humanity is predestined to destruction.
That just can't be right.
It seems that this whole matter rests on what Paul meant by before the founding. I was hoping that a predestination type would explain why they chose to read those scriptures as refering to before the fall. Peace.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Moz , it’s good that you want to find answers! Jehovah wants you to, also.

Feel free to use that site. As you implied, it’s loaded!

It helps me all the time!

Contact me on here, if you’d like.

 

[Moz]

It has always seemed to me the Fall is simply a reflection of the fact that, as man evolved from the rest of the apes and started to acquire moral awareness, and thus to be able to distinguish right from wrong, it was perhaps inevitable that he would often choose wrong rather than right. This predisposition to sin is what I was taught the Fall really signifies. The Genesis story is an allegory, capturing this insight in terms early people could identify with.

So it seems not unreasonable that God (if He exists) would see this one coming and realise He might need to send a messenger, a teacher, an exemplar of human conduct, to help Man. In fact perhaps a series of them, culminating in Himself in human form.........

Thank you for the interesting response. Ok let's take Genesis as allegory. In the first century when paul, or whoever it was, refers to the allegorical founding of the world what was he talking about, the planet or the people?

See, Paul said that an action was taken on Gods part. When that action was taken is, it seems to me, pretty crucial in establishing if the God of the bible is a tyrant who predestines to life or destruction or wether God works within and with his creation to accomplish his will as the situation develops. Peace.

 

[exchemist]

Thank you for the interesting response. Ok let's take Genesis as allegory. In the first century when paul, or whoever it was, refers to the allegorical founding of the world what was he talking about, the planet or the people?

See, Paul said that an action was taken on Gods part. When that action was taken is, it seems to me, pretty crucial in establishing if the God of the bible is a tyrant who predestines to life or destruction or wether God works within and with his creation to accomplish his will as the situation develops. Peace.

Isn't it just a new take on the idea of the Chosen People?

In my Jerusalem bible, the passage is:" Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons through Jesus Christ." While it obviously acknowledges the prescience of God, to be able to see into the future, it seems to me it is identifying the good fortune (and special responsibilities?)of this group of early Christians, rather than predestination of individuals. After all, it is silent about the fate of those who are not members of this privileged group. And there is nothing here to deny the free will of individuals.

I actually think one needs to read all these things in context and not overburden individual phrases with a load of meaning that is not sustainable.

 

[sooda]

HI. Thanks for the answer but it wasn't very helpful. Wether the story is literal or created myth is beside the point. The author wrote what he wrote and meant what he meant. It is pretty important in the context of the story wether God planed the fall or not. The whole calvinist system of predestination hinges on it for one thing.

You want to haggle over the details of a myth???

 

[sooda]

It does not matter who wrote
it.. . I want to know what it means and what the author was refering to. This can be done with any literature. A word was used and i am interested in what the writer meant by the word.

There were several versions of the creation myth that were cobbled together during the time of King Omri when he was trying to reunite the "United Kingdom".. One obstacle was that the Judeans despised the people of Israel in the north.

 

[sooda]

 

[1213]

EPH 1:4 Says that God chose certain ones "before the foundation of the world"
This has been taken as meaning that before the creation of the earth God already knew that the fall was going to happen. ...

I think it means God knew how things will go.

 

[Moz]

You want to haggle over the details of a myth???

I want to haggle over what the author meant when he wrote what he wrote. If you have any idea about what the 'predestiny" crowd teach then this is the key concept that whole hill is founded on. 'before the creation of the world God chose us. "
If this was any other book from the past we could discuss the meaning of the author without worrying wether it was myth or not. A greek word was used, kosmos, it has mupltiple meanings , what was the meaning that the author meant? The planet or redeemable mankind? It's a pretty simple question.

 

[sooda]

I want to haggle over what the author meant when he wrote what he wrote. If you have any idea about what the 'predestiny" crowd teach then this is the key concept that whole hill is founded on. 'before the creation of the world God chose us. "

If this was any other book from the past we could discuss the meaning of the author without worrying wether it was myth or not. A greek word was used, kosmos, it has mupltiple meanings , what was the meaning that the author meant? The planet or redeemable mankind? It's a pretty simple question.

Predestination seems to be the exact opposite of free will.

 

[Moz]

I think it means God knew how things will go.

I'm not sure if your on the side of it's all a myth anyway but either way thanks for the answer.
So Paul was implying that God knew what was going to happen and decided to act, chosing some for life, before the events actually happened. I'm not sure what that signifies about Gods fairness and justice. It has the smell of tyrany to me. Peace.

 

[Moz]

Predestination seems to be the exact opposite of free will.

Yes exactly. On that point I actually think that Paul is refering to a class of people rather than to individuals, that God had chosen to raise a people to do his will as the answer to satans challenge. Gen3:15 seems to indicate this with its your seed and my seed talk.
I suppose that my query is about when this decision was made. It seems much more reasonable, to me anyway, to put this event after the fall but before the birth of children who will constitute the world of mankind.
I guess i'm saying that God reacting to the fall as it happened rather than planing it all from the start seems a more consistant portrayal of a God of love. As well as overturning the horrific doctrine of calvinist and lutheran predestination to hell for all the unelect. Peace.

 

[Moz]

Isn't it just a new take on the idea of the Chosen People?

In my Jerusalem bible, the passage is:" Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons through Jesus Christ." While it obviously acknowledges the prescience of God, to be able to see into the future, it seems to me it is identifying the good fortune (and special responsibilities?)of this group of early Christians, rather than predestination of individuals. After all, it is silent about the fate of those who are not members of this privileged group. And there is nothing here to deny the free will of individuals.

I actually think one needs to read all these things in context and not overburden individual phrases with a load of meaning that is not sustainable.

Very interesting. I to think it is refering to a group rather than individuals. However i think the question as to when the decision to select this group was made does have weighty impications as to the nature of Gods Love and justice.
Their are schools of thought using this scripture (and others like it) who vehemently propound the teaching that every saved person and every dammed person is forordained 'before the world (the planet) was made". That is the nut i'm trying to crack. Peace.

 

[Desert Snake]

I know that is Abrahamic religions this may sound strange, but the way I understand it(can be wrong) is that before we become human beings we were a part of the spiritual realm or heaven if you like. but because we started to eve sin there(moral decline ) our physical realm was created to we could feel pain, pleasure, sadness, anger or in other words attachments to physical and emotional experiences.
This is a way for human beings to "repay" for our wrongdoings(sins) and until we have understood how we do this we will stay in the human realm as a physical being (human, animal, plant, and so on)

But when did it start? I think the number of years would scare people if they fully knew it.

This might be 'level of hell' idea, [parallel.

Makes sense, somewhat

 

[sojourner]

HI. Thanks for the answer but it wasn't very helpful. Wether the story is literal or created myth is beside the point. The author wrote what he wrote and meant what he meant. It is pretty important in the context of the story wether God planed the fall or not. The whole calvinist system of predestination hinges on it for one thing.

Calvin was mistaken. So was Augustine.