Activist atheism

[tayla]

Then there is this...that improvements to our world are all the result of atheism, and that religion holds us back

All the result of atheism?
Argument against claim never made is, you know, called a strawman.

My sentence was:

Ignoring atrocities by both atheists and religious, I don't see evidence that improvements to our world are all the result of atheism, and that religion holds us back.​

I assume you don't believe that all improvements to the world are the result of atheism; neither do I.

I occasionally hear someone supporting the view that only atheists can improve human knowledge; this, because the religious are not truly scientific and will, therefore, inject their supernatural and unscientific views. I'm surprised you haven't heard of views such as this, but I don't wish to try to find examples; perhaps I'll start collecting them when I come across them in the future.

 

[tayla]

However, if you wish to say that religion has never held any society /culture back, that is seriously ridiculous.

Are you kidding? Revealed religions and spiritual paths have resulted in untold misery and ignorance in the history of humankind.

Maybe they've even done some good here and there.

 

[tayla]

His imaginary atheists

Here are a few examples from my imaginary atheists:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

 

[ecco]

These quotes express hatred of certain beliefs:

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

How does that quote express hatred toward anyone?

Do you always equate truth with hatred?

 

[tayla]

I hear they are all plotting with the Illuminati

I hope you don't believe the Illuminati conspiracy too.

 

[tayla]

Right, because the bigots are always the OTHER GUYS, not US!

Seems to me we should honestly assess people's worldview and make changes to our own as needed.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Here are a few examples from my imaginary atheists:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

They are trolls trying to sell books like Anne Coulter and her ilk, of course they are going to say outrageous and "controversial" things . It's a game.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

The quotes are real, or mostly so.

Your reaction to them, however, is exagerated to a ludicrous level, and misrepresents them.

 

[tayla]

Reading the OP i would query that statement

You are calling me a bigot. Why?

I just want atheists to consider that not everyone who rejects materialism/physicalism is a religious brain-dead zealot. And these other kinds of non-materialist/non-physicalist sincere serious views should be considered as acceptable, even if you disagree with them. Heck, some of these views might even have merit, but the assumption of materialism/physicalism makes people blind to the possibilities. And so they must claim (for example) that consciousness is an illusion created by the neural network of the brain.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The quotes are real, or mostly so.

Your reaction to them, however, is exagerated to a ludicrous level, and misrepresents them.

And of course you can with only reason, logic and evidence show that is otherwise.
Well, you can't in the end, because it will end with that you feel differently.
I can't do the everyday world with only reason, logic and evidence and I have yet to meet anybody else, who can do so.

 

[tayla]

didn't accuse anyone of anything except the OP for inventing a premise.

I believe you are claiming one of my premises is false. Here's evidence:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

 

[tayla]

You replied to my post. Am I supposed to assume that you did out of decorative aesthetics alone?

I should remind us all: it's nearly impossible to keep track of the sub-threads within threads. We should all be gracious when these kinds of errors occur.

 

[Martin]

These quotes express hatred of certain beliefs:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

No, they are objecting to theism being pushed down peoples throats, particularly children.

 

[tayla]

you should know

I believe you are calling a member of ReligiousForums a bigot. Ouch. It even hurts me (and I'm not a bigot).

It's probably appropriate to refer to some as ill-mannered, but we should limit our interactions to the ideas expressed, even giving grace as needed.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

The quotes are real, or mostly so.

Your reaction to them, however, is exagerated to a ludicrous level, and misrepresents them.

And those quotes are exaggerated in themselves and are designed to sow controversy. It is the sort of talk that right-wing pundits throw out when they are on talk radio screaming about the evils of liberals. If Anne Coulter or Rush Limbaugh said something like "Liberalism is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument." we would question their sincerity and seriousness and think they are just being right wing jerks

 

[tayla]

For the most part, I consider the atheist I have met on the internet and in this forum to be reasonable, rational people that are willing to listen and discuss issues. I like them for that. There have been a small few that have leaned toward a zealous application of their views that could be said to approach activism, but hardly strong enough or close enough for me to fully consider them activist, though I confess to calling one that as a goad.

Thanks for your honesty.

Often my interactions with atheists has been limited to them saying, "prove it", or some such short phrase. Usually they don't bother to understand my point. If I try to share more to help them understand, they merely say, "prove it", again. Kind of a dull interaction in the realm of ideas.

Why is being called an activist a bad thing? Don't all of us wish to share and persuade others of our great viewpoints and perspectives? And don't we all wish to improve our societies by ridding them of bad ideas? Such is the work of activists.

You seem to consider zealots as less extreme than activists. I think of it the other way around; zealots scare me. Fundamentalist evangelist Christians are zealots.

 

[tayla]

I do not see any hatred of spiritual beliefs, but I do see resistance to those that insist their religious beliefs should be the views of everyone. I resist that too and I am not an atheist.

These quotes express hatred of certain beliefs:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

 

[tayla]

I do not think that atheists care what I believe, but there is an interest in what I do in reference to that belief. Should poor application of belief be tolerated simply because the person believing it claims to follow a religion? A person might imagine being generous every day of their life, but if they never give, then it does matter what they imagine.

I think atheists in general care very much that religious people believe false ideas. After all, during the various atheist seminars and conferences, speeches against religion and against Christianity are very common. Some of these have a very mocking tone towards viewpoints they oppose. And the audience claps and cheers when religious people are exposed for being so stupid.

 

[ChristineM]

Do quotes such as these qualify as activism, meaning, wishing for change in society? (Argumentation is a tool of activism, an action.)

All these quotes assume it's better if there were no religion, with the assumption that certain intuitions promote religion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would abolish schools which systematically inculcate sectarian beliefs.
--Richard Dawkins

How any government could promote the Vardy academies in the North-East of England is absolutely beyond me. Tony Blair defends them on grounds of diversity, but it should be unthinkable in the 21st century to have a school whose head of science believes the world is less than 10,000 years old.
--Richard Dawkins

How dare you force your dopey unsubstantiated superstitions on innocent children too young to resist? How DARE you?
--Richard Dawkins

Pat Robertson would be harmless comedy, were he less typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Look carefully at any region of the world where you find intractable enmity and violence between rival groups today. I cannot guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for in-groups and out-groups. But it’s a good bet.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior virtue of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If you feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing, it would be worth asking yourself how this came about. The answer is usually some form of childhood indoctrination. If you are religious at all it is overwhelmingly probable that your religion is that of your parents.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case.
--Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Even if religion did no other harm in itself, its wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness – its deliberate and cultivated pandering to humanity’s natural tendency to favour in-groups and shun out-groups – would be enough to make it a significant force for evil in the world.
--Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.
--Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead.
--Christopher Hitchens

I absolutely refuse to associate myself with anyone who cannot discern the essential night-and-day difference between theocratic fascism and liberal secular democracy....
--Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens and His Critics: Terror, Iraq, and the Left

Those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being—the well-being of all of us on the planet—depends on the education of our descendants.
--Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

A lot of Dawkins stuff there. Perhaps if you had really studied you would know that Dawkins is not,a by his own admittance, not atheist.

However as a humanitarian he has some good points, radical, i think not, controversial, absolutely.

So can i ask why you object to the first quote?
Or the second? Are you against education?
Or the third, indoctrination is brainwashing, why would you support that?

And so on,.

 

[tayla]

The improvements in our world were and are the result of people that have have held and hold many and various views on religion including not following a religion or believing in a deity.

Yes. Thank you for stating it so eloquently.