Are there any Muslims here that support apostasy should be punished?

[Shadow Wolf]

You should take into account the source of sooda's definition. Rafed.net is an Islamic apologetics site.

Wikipedia makes no such distinctions.
Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia See post #129.

I did. It changes nothing. Sin is not apostasy, nor inherently is it treason. The actions listed by Sooda would be sin, not be apostasy and not necessarily treason.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Let it speak for itself. You obviously don't want to know what Muslims think.

That's rather pretentious, don't you think? What Muslims think about Islam matters, but it's easy to find Muslims who disagree on various subjects (as it is with Christianity), and you don't have to be a Muslim to have an opinion on Islam, and most likely even those who say they have no opinion have one because that's just the way we function.

 

[charlie sc]

Generally its not a death penalty offense.. It isn't in the Koran, but the interpretation differs from country to country.

Its like the word Shaheed.. Israelis will swear it means suicide bomber when it means nothing of the sort. It means witness.

Since you're the only person here who believes apostasy should be punished, if you don't mind I'd like to ask a further question.

Except for the death penalty, what do you think is an appropriate punishment for apostasy and only apostasy?
If you want to say it's treason or whatever, that's fine, but could you still give a good guess what you deem an appropriate punishment.

I'm not here to judge what you believe, since i'm a moral relativist, but that doesn't mean I don't have likes or dislikes. If you don't want to answer then that's fine.

 

[Baroodi]

I think your prophet made it quite clear:


Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

— Sahih al-Bukhari,[/QUOTE

I think the Quranic verses are very clear. Many of the sayings attributed to the Prophet are fabricated or twisted or interpreted out of context. It was not narrated that the prophet killed a turn coat. You need to differentiate between two apostates. The first one reverted from Islam and joined Islam fighters. Since Islam was in war in its early stage launched by the infidels to eradicate it, killing these fighters on capturing them was the rule. The other one, reverted but did not launch anti-islam activity, no one would touch him. What said by Quran comes first, next to this the authenticated prophet action interpreted in its context.

 

[Baroodi]

And who is doing this pumping?

every one knows
blackmailing and political transactions

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You aren't listening.. Nobody gets on a soapbox and publicly renounces their religion. Apostacy is TREASON... It means you commit a crime against the community.

No it is most certainly NOT treason, nor is it any sort of crime, neither against your community or anything else.

Here's a little surprise for you. Belief is a PRIVATE MATTER. The content of my thoughts is my business and my business alone, and if you think that you or anybody else has any business therein, then you are sadly mistaken.

I despise this sort of communal, communistic thought, that seems to declare that any person's worth is entirely dependent on their believing the same things as you. What hubris. What snobbery. What foolishness.

What the heck does it matter to you what somebody else believes? What frigging business is it of yours? Who the hell do you think you are that you should sit in judgement over them?

Your attitudes are among those that make me despise religion. I'm only relieved that there are some gentler believers who don't actually suppose they speak for God.

 

[ManSinha]

I think "punishment for apostasy" is an oxymoron.
So someone does not like the faith - let them leave
Live and let live

The only reason for such "punishment" whether it be execution, exile or disfellowshipping - is to strike fear in the hearts of those who remain and make an example of the person that chose to leave. It seldom works - those who want to leave will leave and some will even go as far to as to enable others who need the extra motivation and support

 

[sooda]

No it is most certainly NOT treason, nor is it any sort of crime, neither against your community or anything else.

Here's a little surprise for you. Belief is a PRIVATE MATTER. The content of my thoughts is my business and my business alone, and if you think that you or anybody else has any business therein, then you are sadly mistaken.

I despise this sort of communal, communistic thought, that seems to declare that any person's worth is entirely dependent on their believing the same things as you. What hubris. What snobbery. What foolishness.

What the heck does it matter to you what somebody else believes? What frigging business is it of yours? Who the hell do you think you are that you should sit in judgement over them?

Your attitudes are among those that make me despise religion. I'm only relieved that there are some gentler believers who don't actually suppose they speak for God.

In Islam Apostasy is considered treason, Have you read the thread or did you just jump in? Christians don't have to be ignorant.. That's not a requirement. WHO is speaking for God?

 

[sooda]

Since you're the only person here who believes apostasy should be punished, if you don't mind I'd like to ask a further question.

Except for the death penalty, what do you think is an appropriate punishment for apostasy and only apostasy?
If you want to say it's treason or whatever, that's fine, but could you still give a good guess what you deem an appropriate punishment.

I'm not here to judge what you believe, since i'm a moral relativist, but that doesn't mean I don't have likes or dislikes. If you don't want to answer then that's fine.

You can't "win" any argument by claiming you know what I believe.. and basically that is rather lame.

I have not said I support criminal indictment for apostasy.. unless its murder and apostasy or rape and apostasy.

We have ten pages here and you still don't get it.

 

[charlie sc]

You can't "win" any argument by claiming you know what I believe.. and basically that is rather lame.

I have not said I support criminal indictment for apostasy.. unless its murder and apostasy or rape and apostasy.

We have ten pages here and you still don't get it.

The only thing I've learned from you is that you have an inability to answer simple questions. I never asked for murder and apostasy or other crimes related to apostasy, which I made abundantly clear over and over again. In the end, I translated the last thing you said and asked you to correct me if I'm wrong as shown here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll take that as you believe apostasy should be punished, just not the death penalty
Thank you

You didn't correct me. I assume because you never really read responses to you. Now, if you really want, I can show over and over again how I ask a very simple questions that you cannot seem to answer. We have a continuous dialogue of you unable to answer a simple question and always relating it to something else.

So, I'm going to surmise that this means, "I have not said I support criminal indictment for apostasy.. unless its murder and apostasy or rape and apostasy," you don't support punishing apostates for ONLY apostasy. I surmised this because you don't give a clear answer. Everyone else this thread can.

 

[charlie sc]

I think "punishment for apostasy" is an oxymoron.
So someone does not like the faith - let them leave
Live and let live

The only reason for such "punishment" whether it be execution, exile or disfellowshipping - is to strike fear in the hearts of those who remain and make an example of the person that chose to leave. It seldom works - those who want to leave will leave and some will even go as far to as to enable others who need the extra motivation and support

Thank you ManSinha.

 

[sooda]

The only thing I've learned from you is that you have an inability to answer simple questions. I never asked for murder and apostasy or other crimes related to apostasy, which I made abundantly clear over and over again. In the end, I translated the last thing you said and asked you to correct me if I'm wrong as shown here.



You didn't correct me. I assume because you never really read responses to you. Now, if you really want, I can show over and over again how I ask a very simple questions that you cannot seem to answer. We have a continuous dialogue of you unable to answer a simple question and always relating it to something else.

So, I'm going to surmise that this means, "I have not said I support criminal indictment for apostasy.. unless its murder and apostasy or rape and apostasy," you don't support punishing apostates for ONLY apostasy. I surmised this because you don't give a clear answer. Everyone else can in this thread.

Before you start demanding that others answer you why don't you find out what apostasy means in the various countries you are criticizing.

 

[charlie sc]

Before you start demanding that others answer you

I'm not demanding an answer from anyone, I'm asking. What I find annoying is deflection and fallacious reasoning; these are the things I point out. Just in case it was a sensitive subject I asked this -

You could just say you don't want to answer it.

why don't you find out what apostasy means in the various countries you are criticizing.

I do not need to find out what other countries think of an immoral act or what is considered a criminal act to determine what I think of it. I am asking what YOU think. For instance, if someone asked me if I think murder is justifiable, I'd have to define murder for myself, because we have to define first what is actually going on. So, I'd define murder as the purposeful intention and action that ends someone's life against their will and you were not defending yourself. I'd say this action, in all cases, is not justifiable. There may be some parts I haven't considered but I can give my opinion and discuss it. I'd want you to define what apostasy means for you and if the act should be punished. This is all I'm asking. (edited grammar)

If you can't understand what I said here, then I give up.

 

[LuisDantas]

You are an Atheist, what concern is that of yours?

Oh, no one would have better reasons to be concerned than us atheists.

At the very least, we have a very pressing need to know what to expect when we find ourselves in Muslim societies.

Remember, there are many Muslims that have a hard time accepting that their own kind might happen to be atheists.

 

[sooda]

I'm not demanding an answer from anyone, I'm asking. What I find annoying is deflection and fallacious reasoning; these are the things I point out. Just in case it was a sensitive subject I asked this -






I do not need to find out what other countries think of an immoral act or what is considered a criminal act to determine what I think of it. I am asking what YOU think. For instance, if someone asked me if think murder is justifiable, I'd have to define murder for myself, because we have to define first what is actually going on. So, I'd define murder as the purposeful intention and action that ends someone's life against their will, you were not defending yourself. I'd say this action, in all cases, is not justifiable. There may be some parts I haven't considered but I can give my opinion and discuss it. I'd want you to define what apostasy means for you and if the act should be punished. This is all I'm asking.

If you can't understand what I said here, then I give up.

I think the death penalty for simple apostasy alone is wrong.. and it is rarely prosecuted,

 

[charlie sc]

I think the death penalty for simple apostasy alone is wrong.. and it is rarely prosecuted,

Thank you

 

[Notanumber]

This is the voice of an expert.

 

[sooda]

This is the voice of an expert.

What is the expert's name????

 

[Notanumber]

What is the expert's name????

He probably doesn’t want to disclose his name and address, but who could blame him for that.

He has many more educational videos on YouTube for those that like to learn.

 

[LuisDantas]

It _is_ true that there are many ex-Muslims fearing for their lives.

Many of them are, understandably, very motivated about spreading awareness of the dangers of Islaam.