Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Treason is betrayal. Islam does consider apostasy to be betrayal, but to become an apostate is to leave.
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Are there any Muslims here that support apostasy should be punished?
- Thread starter charlie sc
- Start date
sooda
Veteran Member
Apostacy in Islam | Al-Islam.org
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/apostacy-islam-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi
Apostasy is Equal to Treason. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyāma form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of …
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I also wouldn't say the West has limited the idea of treason/betrayal to political and military terms, as Dante considered those who were treacherous against those they shared special bonds with as well as treachery against god. Betraying family is pretty much a universal.
sooda
Veteran Member
Al-Azhar: to leave Islam is ‘treason’
June 2016 - World Watch Monitoral-azhar-to-leave-islam...
Al-Azhar: to leave Islam is ‘treason’. To convert away from Islam is “treason” that should carry the death penalty, according to Sunni Islam’s topmost religious authority. “The penalty for an open apostate, departing from the community, is well stipulated in Sharia,” Al-Azhar’s Grand Imam Ahmed el-Tayyib declared on Egypt television last week.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you can use words to express your thoughts. Anyway, the link you gave only confirms the OP. Islam is unique in that it considers apostasy not only a thought crime but it's considered treasonous.
Do you actually see a problem with that or is it acceptable and you still haven't answered my question whether you support people punishing apostasy?
Getting a simple question answered from some people in this thread is like pulling teeth.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
a·pos·ta·sy
noun: apostasy; plural noun: apostasies
the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.
trea·son
/ˈtrēzən/
noun
noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
the action of betraying someone or something.
Those things refer to two different and specific things. Islam may equate the two, but they are different, and apostasy is not any of the actions you mentioned above.A Muslim who rapes someone is guilty of rape. He has not renounced Islam and left the community. THAT is apostasy.
sooda
Veteran Member
No one is arguing about the West.. The issue is apostasy in Islam.
sooda
Veteran Member
I'm not a Muslim.. It is what it is.
Punishment for Apostasy - Al Islam
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html
The advocates of capital Punishment for Apostasy rely heavily on a tradition which mentions the execution of a woman for apostasy. This tradition is most unreliable, to say the least. The truth of the matter is that the Holy Prophet sa never ordered the execution of a woman on account of her apostasy.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And murdering someone will not make them an apostate.
You see no problems with that statement?
It strikes me as a version of 'know your place'.
It took trailblazers to improve the lot of women, minorities, indigenous...
I'm not super into any idea that apostasy should be criminal, particularly when the religion in question is prescriptive around behaviour, gender roles, sexuality and more.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Again, do you believe apostasy should be punished by people?
I am awestruck by your inability or refusal to answer a simple question.
You could just say you don't want to answer it.
sooda
Veteran Member
I am not a Muslim so I really don't have an opinion. Americans didn't go to Arabia as reformers or missionaries..
I do get why "apostate" is tacked on to the sentence of a murderer or rapist. That makes absolute sense to me.
There is no historical record which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.
A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos3.htm
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
That was rather rude.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
With your spam, fervent responses and somewhat obscure contrarian view, it seem you do have an opinion.
What does this have to do with anything?
It makes sense to me if a murderer is tried to murder or a rapist is tried for rape. What does not make sense is why apostasy is murder or whatever it is you're trying to say. People can be tried for only apostasy or only murder then how does mixing them get us anywhere?
I don't know, but that's not the question. I'm asking what people believe today. Do they believe apostasy AND ONLY APOSTASY
justifies being punished by other human beings?Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll take that as you believe apostasy should be punished, just not the death penalty
Thank you
So far it's only you, in this thread, that think apostasy should be punished by other human beings. I have no intention of singling you out. I'm just stating an observation.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
sooda
Veteran Member
With your spam, fervent responses and somewhat obscure contrarian view, it seem you do have an opinion.
What does this have to do with anything?
It makes sense to me if a murderer is tried to murder or a rapist is tried for rape. What does not make sense is why apostasy is murder or whatever it is you're trying to say. People can be tried for only apostasy or only murder then how does mixing them get us anywhere?
I don't know, but that's not the question. I'm asking what people believe today. Do they believe apostasy AND ONLY APOSTASY
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll take that as you believe apostasy should be punished, just not the death penalty
Thank you
So far it's only you, in this thread, that think apostasy should be punished by other human beings. I have no intention of singling you out. I'm just stating an observation.
Nothing fevered about it.. As for the linked references... I doubt you have read them.. Your objective is to degrade Muslims, not understand.
Let me give you the basics.
Sharia means.. "the well worn path to life-giving water". Muslims value a peaceful society.
Our culture is not the ONLY Right way.
Rape, murder, peadophilia, grand larceny, drug trafficking and swindling is called "making mischief in the land"... and that is what hurts the community or "umma" and destroys a peaceful society. To do so is treason aka apostasy. It is NOT the well worn path to life-giving water.
sooda
Veteran Member
Let it speak for itself. You obviously don't want to know what Muslims think.
Notanumber
A Free Man
How do you know what Muslims think?
sooda
Veteran Member
Because I posted 6 articles on Apostasy in Islam.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
How can I understand when it's nearly impossible to get a simple answer.
If it's a peaceful society, I'm happy for them. Nonetheless, I do think making thought a crime is not a peaceful solution. In fact, I find it the very antithesis of peaceful.
Which culture is that? You said you weren't Muslim.
Nonetheless, I do agree with you. There is no right culture, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss the merits or faults of society or culture. For instance, women had to fight for their rights in most of the western world even though it was the cultural norm for them to be obedient, the weaker race and inferior. In my humble opinion, things have changed for the better now.
Similarly, I think people should have the right to believe what they want to without fear of persecution, especially violence, improvement, or death, but if you think otherwise, then that's fine too. I'm just going to avoid countries that enforce belief laws.
You have a very strange argument here and I don't think it makes a smidgen of sense. You seem to be using the word apostasy as an umbrella term to mean nearly all crime. However, this is not what I mean, everyone else seems to mean or it seems even the site you linked. This belief is particular to only apostasy, which means to, "
(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostate from the faith in which he was born.
(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community." This is from one of the links you gave me Punishment for Apostasy
I understand that for you, and perhaps others, apostasy means treason, but treason does not mean apostasy. I hope you can logically differentiate the two.