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[Polymath257]

YOU are claiming ALL genetic changes happened in 200 mutations, so if you don't know how telomeres became different in 10,000 places in 200 mutations, don't claim 200 mutations. That's my point.

No, I am saying the developmental differences between chimps and humans are produced by fewer than 200 mutations.

The telomeres are irrelevant to the developmental differences.

 

[Polymath257]

Begging your pardon, but in telomeres alone, there ARE 10,000 differences, as cited. I'm asking you to reconcile "some primates became humans in 200 mutations" with the implied "regarding telomeres, 10,000 differences were accounted for by only 200 mutations".

I'm having trouble with your assumptions, as above.

Thanks.

So there are a different number of repeats of the standard sequence. That is *easily* a product of a single event.

And, again, that is irrelevant to the developmental differences between humans and other apes.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Begging your pardon, but in telomeres alone, there ARE 10,000 differences, as cited. I'm asking you to reconcile "some primates became humans in 200 mutations" with the implied "regarding telomeres, 10,000 differences were accounted for by only 200 mutations".

I'm having trouble with your assumptions, as above.

Thanks.

What do you think that means? Can you clarify the point you're trying to make?

 

[We Never Know]

YOU are claiming ALL genetic changes happened in 200 mutations, so if you don't know how telomeres became different in 10,000 places in 200 mutations, don't claim 200 mutations. That's my point.

You seem to lack knowledge in telomeres. This should help you.

What is a telomere?

That article is well explained and in depth.

 

[Jose Fly]

Feel free to refute that claim re: telomeres here, providing, of course, the source.

Source for the LARGE difference in telomeres:

Kakuo, S., Asaoka, K. and Ide, T. 1999. ‘Human is a unique species among primates in terms of telomere length.’ Biochem Biophys Res Commun 263:308-314.

Check.

I took a quick look at that paper and I have to say, I'm a bit confused as to what your point is. The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'. They also note that telomerase activity is similarly reduced in humans, relative to other primates and mice.

So perhaps you could explain why this paper is so important to you?

Human telomere repeats are ~10kbp shorter than telomere repeats in other primates and mice, therefore __________________________________?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I took a quick look at that paper and I have to say, I'm a bit confused as to what your point is. The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'. They also note that telomerase activity is similarly reduced in humans, relative to other primates and mice.

So perhaps you could explain why this paper is so important to you?

Human telomere repeats are ~10kbp shorter than telomere repeats in other primates and mice, therefore __________________________________?

Therefore, they can not be a common ancestor, unless we are expected to believe that after the "missing" common ancestor split, humans no longer had teomere repeats......

 

[Jose Fly]

Therefore, they can not be a common ancestor, unless we are expected to believe that after the "missing" common ancestor split, humans no longer had teomere repeats......

You probably should read the paper before commenting on it. As noted in the introduction of the paper, humans do have telomere repeat regions, they're just shorter.

Heck, I even stated that in my post that you were attempting to respond to:

The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'.​

Try to pay better attention next time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Therefore, they can not be a common ancestor, unless we are expected to believe that after the "missing" common ancestor split, humans no longer had teomere repeats......

Humans still have telomere repeats.

 

[Bear Wild]

I took a quick look at that paper and I have to say, I'm a bit confused as to what your point is. The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'. They also note that telomerase activity is similarly reduced in humans, relative to other primates and mice.

So perhaps you could explain why this paper is so important to you?

Human telomere repeats are ~10kbp shorter than telomere repeats in other primates and mice, therefore __________________________________?

I read the article too and either does not understand genetics at all or at least no understanding of telomeres and their sequencing or it is the deliberate use of numbers and facts to create false information trying to make something look impossible. This last possibility is the hallmark of everything I read in the ID websites. Multiple cases of taking pieces of a research paper and creating a new conclusion not supported by the original paper or in total opposition to the research study. It seems they think if the numbers are large enough people will be fooled that they have no meaning.

 

[gnostic]

Well, there is an element in the US that are solidly opposed to science and education.. Its definitely sad, but not surprising to me.

Did you know that Ken Ham is an Australian?

He moved and settled there in the US, probably because he knows that there are more creationists out there, therefore more appreciative audience, whom he can make a quick buck out of the gullible creationists. He is living the American dream.

Personally, the US can keep him because I don’t want him to come back to Australia.

 

[gnostic]

I can't help but notice,
Ham left Australia and settled about 100 miles south of where I live. What does that tell ya?

It tell us, thank goodness he is living no where near me.

 

[gnostic]

As a fan of ham, I wish he'd change his name to Baloney.
Or Mortadella.

You can’t do that. My parents love abalones.

 

[sooda]

Did you know that Ken Ham is an Australian?

He moved and settled there in the US, probably because he knows that there are more creationists out there, therefore more appreciative audience, whom he can make a quick buck out of the gullible creationists. He is living the American dream.

Personally, the US can keep him because I don’t want him to come back to Australia.

OMG.. I had no idea he was Australian.. He would come to America.. There is something "folksy" about being an uneducated American.

I could cuss you for not wanting him back.

 

[gnostic]

OMG.. I had no idea he was Australian.. He would come to America.. There is something "folksy" about being an uneducated American.

I could cuss you for not wanting him back.

Oh, there are plenty of crazy Australians, some of them are bigots, some are ignorant, and some of them are lying son@###.

Oops! Sorry, please censor that last part out.

Anyway, I don’t think Australian government would want to folk out taxpayer money to built his white elephant Creation Museum or the Ark Encounter.

I am just glad that we have “one less” of them.

I just wish some of our pollies would go with Ham. But wishes are for pigs that fly...or was that “cow”?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

You probably should read the paper before commenting on it. As noted in the introduction of the paper, humans do have telomere repeat regions, they're just shorter.

Heck, I even stated that in my post that you were attempting to respond to:

The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'.​

Try to pay better attention next time.

Exactly....... Shorter....... So if they evolved from a common ancestor they would have been equal at the split....... which means humans must have had almost no telomere repeats after the split to be 10,000 base pairs smaller, while the others continued to have those repeats at their normal rate. Or humans had them at the normal rate and all others were accelerated....

I.e. no inference of ancestry can be assumed.....

 

[Polymath257]

Humans still have telomere repeats.

They are just shorter than in other apes. Which means that some process producing the repeats stops earlier--a single mutation.

 

[Polymath257]

Exactly....... Shorter....... So if they evolved from a common ancestor they would have been equal at the split....... which means humans must have had almost no telomere repeats after the split to be 10,000 base pairs smaller, while the others continued to have those repeats at their normal rate. Or humans had them at the normal rate and all others were accelerated....

I.e. no inference of ancestry can be assumed.....

Huh? Why would humans have to have none just after the split? They could have had the same number, then had a mutation decreasing the number of repeats produced.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I do believe that you read the actual article, I expect your argument was cut and pasted from Answers in Genesis, and I posit that you have no actual idea of what you are bloviating about.

And you do... so how would you account for the 10,000 changes in telomeres in a short period of evolution (primates to humans)?

Or do you want to make more fallacy arguments (I'm stupid, I cut and paste)?

 

[Polymath257]

And you do... so how would you account for the 10,000 changes in telomeres in a short period of evolution (primates to humans)?

Or do you want to make more fallacy arguments (I'm stupid, I cut and paste)?

A single mutation changing how long the protein that forms those repeats acts.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Telomeres are segments of DNA at the end of our chromosomes and function to prevent chromosomes from fraying or tangling with one another which can cause the genetic information to get mixed up or destroyed, leading to cell malfunction, increasing the risk of disease or even shortening lifespans.

Each time a cell divides, its telomeres become shorter until they become too short for more divisions and the cells are unable to divide further and become inactive, die or continue dividing with abnormal results. The shortening of the human telomere length shortens with time from 15,000 base pairs at birth down to 4000 base pairs at later ages.


The telomere repeating unit 5 – TTAGGG – 3 is common among animals. The length of the telomere repeats is different at 20-50 kbp in rodents compared to 10 kbp in humans and at least 23 kbp in other primates. But this is controlled by telomerase activity and these are repeating units. Your conclusion about this as so significantly different in the base pair pattern is completely in correct. Posting incorrect conclusions on research without understanding it and using what appear as large number differences is the classic ID way try confuse people in to believing something is impossible to naturally occur when the evidence shows the opposite.

And... how do you account for the 10,000 telomere difference during rapid evolution--primates to humans?