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Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You're trying to present a scientifically supported hypothesis about the ark, yes? If that is the case then you can't start inserting magic into it when you run out of scientifically verifiable answers.
Pick one or the other (science or God-magic), but you can't have both.

I guess, by “magic”, you mean God’s ability to suspend or alter the laws of physics?
Why not? Since Jehovah created the laws governing the Universe (Job 38:33), why would He not use both to accomplish His purpose?

(However, the after effects of His influence would no doubt leave “tracks”, ie., evidence...at times. He’d have no reason to hide it! Although, there were instances where He did, probably. Definitely if it could be used as an idol...like maybe the Ark. I don’t know. It’s why He had the idol Serpent destroyed.)
 

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
I guess, by “magic”, you mean God’s ability to suspend or alter the laws of physics?
Why not? Since Jehovah created the laws governing the Universe (Job 38:33), why would He not use both to accomplish His purpose?

(However, the after effects of His influence would no doubt leave “tracks”, ie., evidence...at times. He’d have no reason to hide it! Although, there were instances where He did, probably. Definitely if it could be used as an idol...like maybe the Ark. I don’t know. It’s why He had the idol Serpent destroyed.)
tl:dr,
I've run out of garbage I can pretend is scientific, so god did it!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Check out The Emperor's New Mind by Penrose.
I appreciate the link.

However, I don’t see where he concludes that a conscious state of activity has no relationship with algorithmic patterns, ties in with metaphysics exactly.

Did I miss something?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sometimes, the idea is so ludicrous, that dismissing out of hand is the only sane approach.

Open-mindedness does not require reconsidering arguments already refuted and rejected. We've seen these arguments before.

Is there a distinct earth event that I can pick up as a supernatural cause without reading the bible?

You've asked this of the believers a few times and received no explicit answers. Isn't that answer enough?

What would’ve happened, is “valleys” formed - Psalms 104; the land surface fell, because the rising springs would have left a vacuum

And what could possibly suck these waters up to the surface in the face of the vacuum that would ensue? And if the earth had collapsed thereafter removing the space the water had occupied, how could it return underground?

using science to disprove God holds no validity

There is no need to disprove any gods. If the claims cannot be adequately supported, they can be rejected on that basis alone.

all I really have to do? Is prove the story is impossible

Or less. You are justified in rejecting insufficiently supported claims without other cause.

I can think of at least 20 points of failure, any one of which destroys the credibility of the tale ... in fact, I wrote those down in a little list... wanna see?

I copied this from a previous post of yours on another site:

NOAH: Any ONE of the following proves NOAH'S Ark Story myth:
From Bob of Quantum Faith

[1] A wooden boat made to bible specifications would have broken in half with the first three foot wave.

[2] A wooden boat that size without a rudder would founder and sink with the first set of five foot waves. The largest ships made of wood, by teams of shipbuilders, using better technology have been no longer than 300 feet. The Santa Maria was only 75 feet long. Genesis 6:15 puts the ark at 450 feet. It would be impossible for a ship this size to be made seaworthy, especially in light of the technology and the building team.

[3] There was only one hatch - in the top. How did they muck out the manure of five million species of animals?

[4] Once the salt water receded, where was the vegetation necessary for life? What did the carnivores eat until the planet was repopulated? How did the animals get back to their habitats without food or fresh water?

[5] What did the meat-eaters eat? Every time Noah fed the lions or the tigers, *poof* - another species of animal goes extinct.

[6] There is not enough water on the earth, to flood all the mountains, as specified in the Bible.

[7] If it did rain enough water [magic?] to cover all the mountains in only forty days, the rainfall would be as dense as actual water - like being in a waterfall, which would have destroyed Noah's wooden boat in minutes.

[8] Noah did not bring trees on board. Trees die when drowned. Once Noah opened his boat, he would have seen nothing but deadwood and mud. All the herbivores would starve within days.

[9] If the human race descended from Noah and his sons, we would see a genetic bottleneck in the human genome roughly 4,000 years back. Do we see this? No.

[10] The population of the world is too high if all humanity came from only four breeding pairs a few thousand years ago.

[11] A 450ft boat could not hold two or seven or whatever of every species. The number and variation of species of insects alone-- would have filled up the ark, hundreds of times over.

[12] Why are there ancient civilizations with continuous histories dating back to long before the generation of Noah? China and the Egyptians have such continuous histories, with no world sterilizing flood in them.

[13] Cave paintings in Europe are drawn in Charcoal. Immersion in water would have erased them. These are 15,000 years and older.

[14] If there were a global flood, you would see a universal, world-wide layer of compressed mud dating the that time. This is not the case.

[15] Putting enough fresh [rain] water into the salt oceans to cover the mountains, would dilute it to dangerous levels killing all marine life

[16] The number and variation of species of insects alone would have filled up the ark hundreds of times over. The number and variation of bird species including unique species from all the islands, would have filled up the ark multiple times over.

[17] How did animals get from Australia to the ark, or from the ark back to Australia? The animals living there now go back to pre-historic times, and most are unique to that continent. Koalas require special diets. How did Mr and Mrs Koala carry their food with them all the way from Australia?
Please make the bacteria evolve into a dog and I'll be happy to change my mind about evolution

Straw man. The theory makes no claim that anybody can do that, and failing to turn E. coli into E. collie is not an argument against the theory.

However, the creationists claim that their god can actually do that instantaneously. Please have your god change a bacteria into a dog (or vice versa) and I'll be happy to change my mind about creationism.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And what could possibly suck these waters up to the surface in the face of the vacuum that would ensue?

I guess I didn't explain it clearly enough...not on you, it was something I was wondering about.

It was apparently the land itself, when losing their underground support and falling, which forced the waters upward.
And if the earth had collapsed thereafter removing the space the water had occupied, how could it return underground?

It didn't....it formed larger oceans and thicker ice caps. So it's here, above the Earth's crust.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It can be for you.....stop reading the posts.

Tell you what. Produce one (1) scientific paper that
shows the vegetation associated with the frozen
mammoth carcasses as being tropical or temperate.

Simple challenge, but, you cannot do it.
You will ignore, or thrash about like a foul-
hooked alligator, trying to get away.

Because even one simple fact can poke
a hole in your lil balloon there.

I mean a real sci paper, not something in Saturday
Evening Post, or some woo woo site, by your flying saucer man or the like.

Standard format, something that actually identifies
the species by their latin names.

Every one I have seen shows the plants as being
characteristic of the tundra and taiga.


What do you suppose it might mean?
How do you explain it?

Try for a really good answer, I send the
best o' creo back to friends in China.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The Bible is fantasy to you.

Does that tell us anything about the Bible? Or rather does that simply tell us more about your misunderstanding of it?

One does not need much in the way of mental acuity, to recognize that the bible simply has to be fiction.

Just for starters? It speaks of the earth being a flat round plate, resting on four giant pillars, beneath a transparent crystalline sky-dome.

And how convenient! There are holes in that dome, that let the Sky Waters come through as ... rain.

THAT is in the bible. And THAT ALONE? Is enough to show it's fiction.

But wait! It's worse! The bible's writers appear to be quite confused where the sun "goes" during the night.

So yeah. Fiction.

You can prove me wrong, though: Have your god ring up the world and say "Hi!"

No? Too much?

Yeah... that's kind of a problem with beings that do not exist.

... they can't say "Hi!"
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Because even one simple fact can poke
a hole in your lil balloon there.

What would happen, do you think, if a respected scientist published his interpretation of the evidence in a way that supported a supernatural event described in the Bible, no matter how well it explained the facts? There would be such an uproar! He’d be martyred and lose status and funding!

Worse than what happened to Richard Sternberg.

But I’ll look for one. Maybe someone retired, then wrote it. (Doubt it’d be peer-reviewed, though.)
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What would happen, do you think, if a respected scientist published his interpretation of the evidence in a way that supported a supernatural event described in the Bible, no matter how well it explained the facts? There would be such an uproar! He’d be martyred and lose status and funding!.

Correct. Because he'd not be doing SCIENCE AT ALL-- which DEMANDS that we follow where the evidence leads.

What you describe? Would be LYING about his "experiment" in order to preserve DOGMA.

That's religion -- no science. And yes-- he'd correctly be drummed out of science.

Just like what happened to Michael Behe... point of fact..... for doing exactly that: Lying.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't this thread about the biblical flood? If so how can we take God out of the conversation?
I don't think that's the issue with the Flood story. Rather the issue is whether the bible is inerrant.

For instance, the bible contains outmoded understandings of cosmology (a flat earth at the center of creation, the sky a hard dome on which you could walk and to which the stars were affixed such that if they came loose they'd fall to earth. (I set out some of the relevant biblical statements demonstrating this >here<).

As for the Flood, it's part of the bible's admixture of folktale and folk history from a time when stories and histories were not clearly distinguished. As I've remarked in earlier posts, it imagines a flat earth between waters above and waters below (Genesis 1:6-7), which accounts for where the water came from and where it went. Trying to defend it as an accurate record of a real event is hopeless ─ the whole of geology and the whole of biology bear unambiguous witness to the contrary. Had there been such a flood, there'd be a single unambiguous geological flood layer all over all continents and the ocean floor, but there's nothing even remotely resembling that, not even if you go back millions of years. Again, had there been such a flood, every land animal would display a genetic bottleneck and every bottleneck would date to the same time, but again there's nothing even remotely resembling that.

Plus in order to submerge Mt Everest (as Genesis 7:19-20 requires) we'd need 1.113 bn cubic miles of water over and above all the water presently on the earth. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, there are some 332,519,000 cubic miles of water on the planet, and that only brings you up to present sea levels, so you need three times that amount again. And then you have to make it disappear afterwards.

And the list of further evidence to the contrary is enormous, as you'd expect.

All Abrahamic Religions believe in God, so to say we are going to take the power of God out of a story we believe in is not going to work, as that is what we believe (God is all powerful). I doubt many believers will let you take God away from them, and will continue to believe.
But the majority of Abrahamic believers don't think the bible is inerrant, and we can see why. That's the issue here.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the bluster...it shows you can’t.

LMAO! No, dude! I'm not that creative.

But the bible authors WERE: The bible literally describes a flat-disc of the earth, which rests on 4 pillars. And the sky is a crystal dome with holes-in, to permit "the waters above" to come through as rain.

It is in there-- I've read the passages.

But the FACT YOU DO NOT KNOW? Proves to 100% that you have NEVER read the entire bible!

LOL! Too FUNNY!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the bluster...it shows you can’t.

But Blu 2 already posted a lovely, lovely list, showing I was right all along.

You should be nice to him for doing your work for you. Follow that link below: the 'here' part...

I don't think that's the issue with the Flood story. Rather the issue is whether the bible is inerrant.

For instance, the bible contains outmoded understandings of cosmology (a flat earth at the center of creation, the sky a hard dome on which you could walk and to which the stars were affixed such that if they came loose they'd fall to earth. (I set out some of the relevant biblical statements demonstrating this >here<).
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
flat earth at the center of creation
Where?

the sky a hard dome.....

Let's just take this. Do you know the Hebrew word "raqi'a"?

"Some translations use the word “firmament”......From this the argument is made that the Genesis account borrowed from creation myths that represent this “firmament” as a metal dome. But even the King James Version Bible, which uses “firmament,” says in the margin, “expansion.” This is because the Hebrew word ra·qiʹa‛, translated “expanse,” means to stretch out or spread out or expand."
Source:Firmament — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
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