The Catholic Church should be shut down

[Shadow Wolf]

What makes things worse is it would be very easy for the Vatican to work towards rectifying these problems. Instructing those guilty to turn themselves in alone would be wonderful. I still wouldn't like that priests do not have to report child abuse, but showing the world that they themselves will not tolerate priests who do the abuse would mend much of their broken image.

 

[oldbadger]

I have not supported the rapists nor an institution known for not properly handling them ( to say the least ). I guess that's an excellent start, don't you think so ?

Can everyone else say the same ?

I don't think that you can be sure of that.
It's usually a real shock when such criminals and crimes are uncovered.

 

[oldbadger]

The Geneva Accord alone is heavy loaded with laws that protect children

Can you show any legislation passed within the Geneva Accords?
And did your country support it? The USA did not sign the Geneva Convention.

 

[oldbadger]

.................................
showing the world that they themselves will not tolerate priests who do the abuse would mend much of their broken image.

So if the Vatican did that and anything else you felt necessary, would that be alright then, or would you still campaign to destroy it?

 

[Koldo]

I don't think that you can be sure of that.
It's usually a real shock when such criminals and crimes are uncovered.

The problem is not supporting the institution when you are not aware of what is going on. It is another, entirely, when you are aware of what is going on.

I suggest you read my last post again to better understand what I was talking about.

 

[oldbadger]

The problem is not supporting the institution when you are not aware of what is going on. It is another, entirely, when you are aware of what is going on.

Gosh..... so squeaky clean..... Soon you won't be able to go shopping, support a sports club, take a train ride, go to a hospital or much else, because a tiny % of the folks everywhere are seriously bad criminals and as it is discovered that their institution turned a blind-eye then you can delete their services from your life. Only 1% of all the RCC priests has been exposed as a sex-criminal.

I suggest you read my last post again to better understand what I was talking about.

Yeah..... I read what you wrote, and it sounded a touch 'self righteous' to me, is all......

 

[Altfish]

Gosh..... so squeaky clean..... Soon you won't be able to go shopping, support a sports club, take a train ride, go to a hospital or much else, because a tiny % of the folks everywhere are seriously bad criminals and as it is discovered that their institution turned a blind-eye then you can delete their services from your life. Only 1% of all the RCC priests has been exposed as a sex-criminal.

Yeah..... I read what you wrote, and it sounded a touch 'self righteous' to me, is all......

It is not only the abuse it is the MASSIVE COVER UP at the highest levels that are to be protested at. That is why the church should be boycotted.
If (to follow your analogy) there was a child abuse ring at your local shopping mall and the mall management covered it up or sent the abusers to a mall 50-miles away would you still shop at those malls?
So, the reason the church is in the dock, is not the 1% criminals, it is the 100% hierarchy who tried to sweep it under the carpet.

 

[oldbadger]

It is not only the abuse it is the MASSIVE COVER UP at the highest levels that are to be protested at. That is why the church should be boycotted.

But not the Church, I would still visit Westminster Cathedral on the way to Victoria Station. It's criminals that need to be sorted, not the Church itself. I'm not a Catholic but the place makes me feel happy when I visit.

If (to follow your analogy) there was a child abuse ring at your local shopping mall and the mall management covered it up or sent the abusers to a mall 50-miles away would you still shop at those malls?

Yes..... after the criminals had been sorted by justice I'd go shopping there.
Would you buy a house where a rape had occurred if it was £100,000 cheaper than the surrounding ones? It would not stay on the market long.

So, the reason the church is in the dock, is not the 1% criminals, it is the 100% hierarchy who tried to sweep it under the carpet.

100% ......... I doubt that.

Anyway, please leave Westminster Cathedral standing, because Churches and priests are nearly 99% innocent.

 

[Altfish]

But not the Church, I would still visit Westminster Cathedral on the way to Victoria Station. It's criminals that need to be sorted, not the Church itself. I'm not a Catholic but the place makes me feel happy when I visit.


Yes..... after the criminals had been sorted by justice I'd go shopping there.
Would you buy a house where a rape had occurred if it was £100,000 cheaper than the surrounding ones? It would not stay on the market long.


100% ......... I doubt that.

Anyway, please leave Westminster Cathedral standing, because Churches and priests are nearly 99% innocent.

If your church is just the buildings, then fair enough.

 

[oldbadger]

If your church is just the buildings, then fair enough.

Fair enough....
Of course, I can think of buildings that have been torn down, and vehicles burned and trashed that were the scenes of the most dreadful and despicable crimes occurred.......... The West's home was torn down, I think?

And, sure, if anybody was being raped, tortured or murdered in Church property then let the place be removed and not replaced, just a memorial to the victims and a lawn or something.

Some athletes and footballers are coming forward now to speak of their younger days as trainees, and if that meant that Wembley Stadium had to be torched then ........ no!

 

[Altfish]

Fair enough....
Of course, I can think of buildings that have been torn down, and vehicles burned and trashed that were the scenes of the most dreadful and despicable crimes occurred.......... The West's home was torn down, I think?

And, sure, if anybody was being raped, tortured or murdered in Church property then let the place be removed and not replaced, just a memorial to the victims and a lawn or something.

Some athletes and footballers are coming forward now to speak of their younger days as trainees, and if that meant that Wembley Stadium had to be torched then ........ no!

There is absolutely no need to tear the buildings down; look at the likes of Auschwitz Birkenau, those building are used to demonstrate the atrocities that man can commit on man.

You still don't seem to appreciate my main argument though; it is the people higher up who are the real criminals, they covered up, they transferred the criminals to other churches, they punished (really!!) them with penance and prayer, they did not inform the police. AND they continue to hide records that could put much of this to bed.

 

[Koldo]

Gosh..... so squeaky clean..... Soon you won't be able to go shopping, support a sports club, take a train ride, go to a hospital or much else, because a tiny % of the folks everywhere are seriously bad criminals and as it is discovered that their institution turned a blind-eye then you can delete their services from your life. Only 1% of all the RCC priests has been exposed as a sex-criminal.

If I found out any of those places had the sort of attitude the Catholic Church has then absolutely! I grant you though that people generally get fired for a lot less than child abuse, so it would be hard to come across anything like that.

Yeah..... I read what you wrote, and it sounded a touch 'self righteous' to me, is all......

I call it taking a stand.

 

[Altfish]

And they are still at it !! Trying to blame the victims

Mexican cardinal says abuse victims should think about skeletons in their own closet

 

[oldbadger]

There is absolutely no need to tear the buildings down; look at the likes of Auschwitz Birkenau, those building are used to demonstrate the atrocities that man can commit on man.

That is wonderful news!
So when I next go to London via Victoria I can go sit in Westminster Cathedral once more....... for sure.
And so, relevant to this thread's title, neither you nor I believe that 'The Catholic Church should be shut down.'
Thank goodness that we got that sorted out.

You still don't seem to appreciate my main argument though; it is the people higher up who are the real criminals, they covered up, they transferred the criminals to other churches, they punished (really!!) them with penance and prayer, they did not inform the police. AND they continue to hide records that could put much of this to bed.

Oh Altfish....... and you think that we all don't know that it's often the leaders who withold actions and evidence?

Your big mistake is that you think that it's automatically ALL the leaders that withold actions and evidence.

Last November 2018 100 seriously very disabled people had cases prepared to put before the High Courts of Justice. They had been disabled in the 70's and 80's through medical neglect. To continue they needed more legal aid.......... guess what the British Government did one week before the trial? They withdrew legal aid and the cases fell flat for lack of funds. Why? Probably, because like in France, there were tens of thousands of similar cases that could follow any successful judgement which would seriously affect the ability of the NHS to carry on (is my best guess). Certain Leaders in the NHS had covered up the causes of these disabilities EVEN FROM THE PARENTS.

Please don't try and tell me about leaders sometimes being aiders and abettors perverting the courses of civil or criminal justice.

Just go and find all the perpetrators of these crimes, and all those who aided and abetted, and bring justice to them, and while you're about it you can go find all the rest who hide out in commerce, industry, retail, travel, services, government, sports, health and entertainment....... oh, and religions.

What do you do for a living? I might have arrested more pedophiles than you in my time, is all.

 

[oldbadger]

If I found out any of those places had the sort of attitude the Catholic Church has then absolutely!

Fair enough...... I would just call for the places to be cleaned out so that they could continue offering a service to the community.

I grant you though that people generally get fired for a lot less than child abuse, so it would be hard to come across anything like that.

You think? Even doctors and dentists have been sexually abusing and raping patients by putting them under. Ten years ago a local veterinary surgeon got nailed for pedophilia. 30 years ago the newspaper man got caught with our neighbour's children in the local woods, he was supposed to deliver them to and from roller-skating for the parents. These scum exist everywhere, so I won't be raging at the next Catholic priest who walks by me, since 410,000 of them are innocent.

I call it taking a stand.

You...., ok, acknowledged........ but most of the shouters are calling it from comfy armchairs, all mouth and no real action.

 

[Altfish]

That is wonderful news!
So when I next go to London via Victoria I can go sit in Westminster Cathedral once more....... for sure.
And so, relevant to this thread's title, neither you nor I believe that 'The Catholic Church should be shut down.'
Thank goodness that we got that sorted out.

Again, I have nothing against buildings

Oh Altfish....... and you think that we all don't know that it's often the leaders who withold actions and evidence?

Your big mistake is that you think that it's automatically ALL the leaders that withold actions and evidence.

Last November 2018 100 seriously very disabled people had cases prepared to put before the High Courts of Justice. They had been disabled in the 70's and 80's through medical neglect. To continue they needed more legal aid.......... guess what the British Government did one week before the trial? They withdrew legal aid and the cases fell flat for lack of funds. Why? Probably, because like in France, there were tens of thousands of similar cases that could follow any successful judgement which would seriously affect the ability of the NHS to carry on (is my best guess). Certain Leaders in the NHS had covered up the causes of these disabilities EVEN FROM THE PARENTS.

Please don't try and tell me about leaders sometimes being aiders and abettors perverting the courses of civil or criminal justice.

Just go and find all the perpetrators of these crimes, and all those who aided and abetted, and bring justice to them, and while you're about it you can go find all the rest who hide out in commerce, industry, retail, travel, services, government, sports, health and entertainment....... oh, and religions.

What do you do for a living? I might have arrested more pedophiles than you in my time, is all.

If you are a CEO of a large company you are responsible for its behaviour and attitude, it's presence in the market place.
The Catholic Churches CEOs, aka The Pope, have an awful record on this. You can try to deflect all you like (We're not talking about the NHS, Sports teams or pop stars) , and yes, many others are guilty to some degree of similar crimes, but it is the man (always a man) at the top of The Catholic Church who should clean it up. Once and for all.
The Pope's failure to do this will lead to its downfall.

The Catholic Church's reputation is lower than Facebook and that says something. By all means start a thread on the British Government, the NHS, pop stars or whatever. BUT DON'T CHANGE THE TOPIC HERE - as my mum said "Two wrongs do not make a right"

 

[Altfish]

Sorry something went wrong with my quoting on post above??

Sorted

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So if the Vatican did that and anything else you felt necessary, would that be alright then, or would you still campaign to destroy it?

Even without the abuse scandal, the Vatican doesn’t meet the normal requirements for statehood. It’s also used its diplomatic influence to nefarious ends on some occasions (though, to be fair, also to positive ends sometimes, too).

Whether Italy wants to consider the Vatican Italian territory is up to them, but I personally feel that my country should not have diplomatic relations with Vatican City/the Holy See.

I see no issue with the Vatican continuing to exist as just another headquarters of a religion with no special rights not granted to other religious headquarters.

 

[Altfish]

The National Secular Society has called on the international community to insist that the Vatican:

1. Ensures all arms of the church, both diocesan and religious, report reasonable suspicions of abuse to relevant secular authorities. They should also provide all possible evidence.
2. Makes available all information held at the Holy See/Vatican on abuse victims who were minors or vulnerable adults to prosecuting authorities. It should ensure all arms of the church, both diocesan and religious, do likewise with the information they hold.
3. Ensures all arms of the church including religious orders pay abuse compensation obligations and reasonable compensation is paid worldwide to clerical abuse victims whose abuse meets civil standards of proof, without the imposition of gagging orders.
4. Releases the survivors of abuse from any confidentiality agreements instigated by the church or its agents relative to alleged or admitted abuse.
5. Stops the church usurping the role of secular courts by purporting to try alleged criminal acts committed outside the Holy See - including by bishops and cardinals.
6. Implements the 2014 recommendations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child.

The NSS has also called on the international community to remove time bars on abuse cases and to introduce everywhere mandatory reporting of institutional abuse, including that disclosed in the confessional. The church has brazenly opposed such measures.

 

[oldbadger]

Even without the abuse scandal, the Vatican doesn’t meet the normal requirements for statehood. It’s also used its diplomatic influence to nefarious ends on some occasions (though, to be fair, also to positive ends sometimes, too).

Whether Italy wants to consider the Vatican Italian territory is up to them, but I personally feel that my country should not have diplomatic relations with Vatican City/the Holy See.

I see no issue with the Vatican continuing to exist as just another headquarters of a religion with no special rights not granted to other religious headquarters.

OK........ fair enough.........
I expect that many countries do hold Vatican City in high regard (if not respect) because it represents a billion and a quarter people. That's about four US populations?

Catholics in some countries probably represent a good lump of the vote.

I reckon we have exhausted this debate, really. I do hope that all and any sex criminals are punished, whoever, wherever and whatever they are, regardless of victim genders or ages. Let's leave it to Judges to decide upon each case individually, eh?