The Catholic Church should be shut down

[Deidre]

As I also have long believed and still very much do. And this is already in place through the bishops here as they are obligated by the church and the law itself to report these violations to the civil authorities, and if they don't then their head may well be on the pike.

Nice! That’s progress!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I looked up stuff on google. Like this thread, its hard to shift facts from opinions.

I’m talking about things like requiring regular criminal background checks and mandatory reporting of abuse claims to police.

They do. They started checking background checks years ago. You cant be a priest with a criminal background check and any sexual relations in the psat, I think, six months of being interviewed neighbors and family. Thats on our local diocese website I looked up recently.

The Catholic Church doesn’t get special exemptions from the law.

I know. I think I said The Churches laws, their doctrines are different than, where Im at, US Virginia laws. The Church ideally wants you to go to confession and right your wrongs with the support and aid of The Church.

I see sexual abuse worse than the cover-ups. If anything, I did ask or said it would be nice if the local laws were applicable for The Church. Unlike other organizations, if you like, yes, the Church is excempt. Its a balancing act of the goverment not being involved in Church matters.

I think francis is trying to address it without changing the sacrament of confession. I dont see anything wrong with priest having confession for children. One set of priest doesnt define or make risk for other priests to commit child abuse (my words).

Its a process. It would be nice to do a thread on solutions so the Church can continue providing religious well-being to those involved. But, well....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No. When the church is the one protecting them instead of outing them then they are part of the issue and need to take their part of the blame. The church doesn't need help, it needs to be ripped wide open to see the infection within.

Thats silly. That means all the child abusers you just throw over the bridge and watch them drown?? Age doesnt make anything worse nor does it being religious nature. Abuse is abuse.

Its better to help then do another holocoast and watch them fry.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not really. The Church is much more than just the clergy and the buildings.

I get that in one sense, "the Church" exists as long as there's still one bishop to perpetuate Apostolic Succession; I'm talking about the more pedestrian sense of "the Church" of the organization that sees to the religious needs and wants of Catholics.

Take the recent Pennsylvania report as an example for some back-of-the-envelope estimates:

- in that sample, there were an average of 167 identified victims per diocese (1,000 over 6 dioceses).

- as I mentioned a few pages back, one source I found gave an average payout of ~$670,000 per victim (though with a lot of variability).

- that gives a total liability of ~$112 million per diocese.

- insurers are starting to drop coverage for Catholic dioceses - and to sue to recover previous payouts - on the grounds that their abuse cover-ups constituted misrepresentation of risk.

- without insurance coverage, the dioceses would have to pay out-of-pocket.

- in the past, awards in the tens of millions have been enough to bankrupt dioceses.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As I also have long believed and still very much do. And this is already in place through the bishops here as they are obligated by the church and the law itself to report these violations to the civil authorities, and if they don't then their head may well be on the pike.

The bishops in Ireland tried to enact a similar policy, but in 1997, the Congregation for Clergy (i.e. the Vatican) sent them a secret letter telling them that their mandatory reporting policy violated canon law and ordered them to drop it. The bishops did stop enforcing the policy, but left it on the books publicly.

Since this came to light, I've had no confidence whatsoever that any Catholic dioceses' mandatory reporting policies have any weight at all.

 

[Flame]

Thats silly. That means all the child abusers you just throw over the bridge and watch them drown?? Age doesnt make anything worse nor does it being religious nature. Abuse is abuse.

Its better to help then do another holocoast and watch them fry.

If the Catholic Church are protecting priests who abuse children then they are also responsible. Ever hear of 18 U.S. Code § 792 - Harboring or concealing persons ?

I also said nothing about "frying" or "holocaust", I said ripped open to show the infection. How convicted pedophiles end up is up to the courts.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I looked up stuff on google. Like this thread, its hard to shift facts from opinions.


They do. They started checking background checks years ago. You cant be a priest with a criminal background check and any sexual relations in the psat, I think, six months of being interviewed neighbors and family. Thats on our local diocese website I looked up recently.

This varies from diocese to diocese. Also, within the area of a diocese, there can be religious orders operating parish churches that aren't under the jurisdiction of the archdiocese. My ex's church was like this: while it was in Toronto, it was run by the Basilian Fathers; the rules of the Archdiocese of Toronto didn't apply.

... and as I mentioned above, the last official position I've heard from the Vatican is that mandatory reporting violates canon law, so I think it would be foolish to trust any diocese to actually enforce any mandatory reporting rules they might have on the books.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just now we are discovering child and other sexual abuse in just about every segment of our societies, cultures and work environments and so I for one wouldn't want to go on the self-righteous judgmental treadmill over one particular organisation.

These other societies, cultures, etc., they don't get international recognition of statehood as a courtesy, they don't get to keep knowledge of child abuse secret, and they can't harbor fugitives like the Vatican. Yes, there are needless and excessive and difficult obstacles to get a boss removed who sexually harasses employees, but this person has not one ounce of legal immunity under the guise of anything.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If the Catholic Church are protecting priests who abuse children then they are also responsible. Ever hear of 18 U.S. Code § 792 - Harboring or concealing persons ?

I also said nothing about "frying" or "holocaust", I said ripped open to show the infection. How convicted pedophiles end up is up to the courts.

I said it, not you. No hidden implications.

It is like throwing people off the bridge or holocaust. I just cant talk that negatively about anyone nor anything. Especially people. Behavior, yes, but the Church is about people.

Its better to talk about the solutions than rehash the problem as if talking about how aweful the church is changes anything.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This varies from diocese to diocese. Also, within the area of a diocese, there can be religious orders operating parish churches that aren't under the jurisdiction of the archdiocese. My ex's church was like this: while it was in Toronto, it was run by the Basilian Fathers; the rules of the Archdiocese of Toronto didn't apply.

... and as I mentioned above, the last official position I've heard from the Vatican is that mandatory reporting violates canon law, so I think it would be foolish to trust any diocese to actually enforce any mandatory reporting rules they might have on the books.

Hmm.....

 

[oldbadger]

Yep:

Magdalene asylum - Wikipedia

BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain | Daily Mail Online

Right.......... I was thinking of the abduction and sale of young women into sex-slavery ....... clearly different. Moving on.....

Did you ever see the film Philomena?
If not, then you should try to get hold of it.

True story, a disgraced (?) and estranged Brit MP who is a writer gets a contract to write about the Laundry girls of Ireland, who, having given birth to a child out of wedlock are discarded by their families, end up as inmates at laundries and other such places run by Nuns.

One of the babies sold to rich American couples ended up as an advisor to President Reagen.

Anyway, as this true story unfolds the true extent of the tragedies, disgraces, crimes, wickedness and shame reveals itself.

These various institutions that were involved in this activity were Catholic. A much older film with similar story (I forget it's name) explained that some of these girls were forced to lay with visiting priests, and where any girls tried to warn the World then they were automatically sectioned under mental health legislation and locked away...... for life.

Yes......... we are all aware of what men and women did (and might still do) in the name of Catholicism around the World. We are also aware that the families and friends of the victims threw the girls to these wolves. There was almost nobody without some degree of shame over this in entire countries.

But surely, only fanatics would call for the closure of a Church with well over one billion decent followers because of the crimes of a tiny tiny percentage of wicked people?

In any event, I don't think that your wishes will be granted, so you might need to redouble your efforts on this one, because then, at least you won't be bothering other religions....

 

[oldbadger]

These other societies, cultures, etc., they don't get international recognition of statehood as a courtesy, they don't get to keep knowledge of child abuse secret, and they can't harbor fugitives like the Vatican. Yes, there are needless and excessive and difficult obstacles to get a boss removed who sexually harasses employees, but this person has not one ounce of legal immunity under the guise of anything.

I get that the Vatican has the benefit and privilege of International Diplomatic Immunity. If we shut down ever country that has abused this 'pass' then we would find ourselves in a world of true anarchy, and that really could lead to some big big atrocities....... Wow! Are you for Anarchy?

Hitler didn't like the Vatican, or so I have read, and would have crushed it all if he had won his wars..... just sayin'......

Yeah........ in my post above to 9/10ths Penguin I introduce the film called 'Philomena' (Judy Dench) and if you haven't seen it then please do....... it's a brilliant film at any level of interest, but it shows the worst about the Laundry Girls of Ireland.

But I think that you are asking for a religion with over a billion followers to be shut down (thread title) and imo that's rather like asking for the Vatican or any other country to be invaded, overrun and crushed.

Let's be careful what we wish for........ ?

 

[PureX]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

It's "too big to fail".

At some point these organizations become so wealthy and powerful that they are untouchable even by the power of a national government. One of these organization will end up killing us all, someday, because we're just too stupid to keep them from gaining so much wealth and power.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If we shut down ever country that has abused this 'pass' then we would find ourselves in a world of true anarchy, and that really could lead to some big big atrocities....... Wow! Are you for Anarchy?

Invasions have happened over less. The abuse being discussed is a systemic occurrence of child abuse, a culture of covering it up, a blatant refusal to cooperate with authorities, refusal to communicate knowledge of child abuse with authorities, and they further their crimes by harboring fugitives.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It seems like you're not prepared to focus upon victims from clubs, youth organisations, charities (oxfam!!), youth detention centres, orphanages, sports facilities or any other places where sexual harassment and assaults have occurred on minors ........only religious groups., but that's just my best guess.

If the leaders of any of those organizations are/were found to be involved in the systematic cover-up of mass sexual abuse against children, then they should be shut down. Which seems to be what happens in most instances, except with the Church. Why is that?

 

[metis]

If the leaders of any of those organizations are/were found to be involved in the systematic cover-up of mass sexual abuse against children, then they should be shut down. Which seems to be what happens in most instances, except with the Church. Why is that?

Because it would be unconstitutional. Blanket punishments that would also affect the innocents as essentially being co-conspirators is not what our system is about.

 

[pearl]

except with the Church. Why is that?

Because the Church is not the hierarchy and it is this hierarchy that protects its own. When the abuse was uncovered in Boston we in Massachusetts continued attending Liturgy, but held back monetary offerings and gave instead to Catholic Charities which among other things led to the resignation of Cardinal Law. But instead of suffering any kind of punishment, John Paul II appointed him to a cushy position in Rome.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because it would be unconstitutional. Blanket punishments that would also affect the innocents as essentially being co-conspirators is not what our system is about.

The innocents can start a new church where they don't abuse children, systematically protect the abusers and cover up their crimes.

So you're essentially saying that the Church is above the law? How can that be?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because the Church is not the hierarchy and it is this hierarchy that protects its own. When the abuse was uncovered in Boston we in Massachusetts continued attending Liturgy, but held back monetary offerings and gave instead to Catholic Charities which among other things led to the resignation of Cardinal Law. But instead of suffering any kind of punishment, John Paul II appointed him to a cushy position in Rome.

Can you clarify what you mean by your first line?

 

[Deidre]

Yea, apathy and people defending child abusers isn’t helping.

It’s downright chilling to see the mad rush to defend child abusers and those who protected them, in this thread because they fear to not do so will make them out to be a bigot.

God help us all.

It's "too big to fail".

At some point these organizations become so wealthy and powerful that they are untouchable even by the power of a national government. One of these organization will end up killing us all, someday, because we're just too stupid to keep them from gaining so much wealth and power.