Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
No it isn't a misrepresentation. No offense, but I already know what many Jews believe about Isa. 53 and it's unconvincing for me.Isaiah 53 isn’t about the coming messiah. You are back filling it with a Christian interpretation that is a misinterpretation. Don’t read it with “Jesus colored” glasses on.
It isn’t about just what Jews believe. Many Christians have the same understanding that Isaiah 53 is simply not about the coming messiah. It isn’t about needing to convince you.No it isn't a misrepresentation. No offense, but I already know what many Jews believe about Isa. 53 and it's unconvincing for me.
Yes it is. You're saying I'm wrong.It isn’t about just what Jews believe. Many Christians have the same understanding that Isaiah 53 is simply not about the coming messiah. It isn’t about needing to convince you.
You believe they falsely attributed the quote to Jesus "If I be lifted up ..."?The idea of a prediction is something being injected into the text by the OP. This is clear imitation but not for nefarious purposes. The writing about Jesus is written centuries after Isaiah is written. A prediction would need some statement the writers of the gospels do not know about, but that is not the case. They know the reference in Isaiah while they are writing the gospel. It is written after Isaiah specifically as an allusion to Isaiah. Similarly Jesus rides on a donkey specifically to symbolize what the scripture says and as quoted the gospel explains this explicitly. (Matthew 21:4) They specifically are doing what Isaiah says. There is no implication that Isaiah has predicted any of it. Similarly Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist 'Just like' Elisha is baptized by Elijah. Its to make a point, not to be a magic trick.
Yes, I am also saying you are wrong. But that doesn’t also mean I need to convince you that you are wrong. I have no obligation to convince you, only an obligation to tell you the truth that you are wrong.Yes it is. You're saying I'm wrong.
Truth belongs to God and only He can show it. Well ... you've done your duty my friend.Yes, I am also saying you are wrong. But that doesn’t also mean I need to convince you that you are wrong. I have no obligation to convince you, only an obligation to tell you the truth that you are wrong.
I believe that their writing is for good purpose and is not nefarious. This kind of speaking what-is-not is part of the culture of Moses in the law. For example each parent tells their child that they were slaves in Egypt, and each parent tells their child that they were brought out of Egypt. It is the law, and they must tell their children this at the Passover festival. Now what must a Christian do that is similar? A Christian dies with Christ and no longer lives. A Christian takes up his cross and dies upon it. "But how can that be?" A Christian says "I am seated in heavenly places" while you see them standing in front of you pushing a mop. How can that be? This is not a false attribution but a different mode of speech. If you die with Christ you are also with him in the gospels and in the cradle and are given gifts by the wise men. You are in the wedding in Cana and turn the water to wine with him. If you have died with him and are risen with him, then you also walk on the water and pull Peter to his feet. You are there teaching disciples and sending them out. It is you with Jesus not Jesus by himself. Therefore it is not a false attribution. It is the same with "If I be lifted up," a different mode of speech.You believe they falsely attributed the quote to Jesus "If I be lifted up ..."?
I see what you're saying and I don't mean to discourage you in good endeavors. But I disagree in part. I believe Jesus fulfilled the promises of the Chosen One of God who was hidden with God from before the foundation of the world. He took these promises for Himself to save us from the world. Indeed He promised them beforehand knowing they would be His weapons and His advantage. "All power is given unto me in heaven and earth" Anyone notice that all power is given unto a human being? This was fulfillment of prophecy. It's for a reason; not just because He's Jesus. He took all power in human form to save us all who are in His same image. So that we could overcome all our enemies. And that's why the promises that gave such power to the Chosen One in human form were so obscure and hidden. Because the enemy could not know beforehand what He would do. Otherwise they would never have crucified Him. They're evil but not stupid.I believe that their writing is for good purpose and is not nefarious. This kind of speaking what-is-not is part of the culture of Moses in the law. For example each parent tells their child that they were slaves in Egypt, and each parent tells their child that they were brought out of Egypt. It is the law, and they must tell their children this at the Passover festival. Now what must a Christian do that is similar? A Christian dies with Christ and no longer lives. A Christian takes up his cross and dies upon it. "But how can that be?" A Christian says "I am seated in heavenly places" while you see them standing in front of you pushing a mop. How can that be? This is not a false attribution but a different mode of speech. If you die with Christ you are also with him in the gospels and in the cradle and are given gifts by the wise men. You are in the wedding in Cana and turn the water to wine with him. If you have died with him and are risen with him, then you also walk on the water and pull Peter to his feet. You are there teaching disciples and sending them out. It is you with Jesus not Jesus by himself. Therefore it is not a false attribution. It is the same with "If I be lifted up," a different mode of speech.
I appreciate your cool response. I do notice in the gospels power is given to people to forgive each other's sins, that whatever we bind on Earth is bound in heaven according to them, and we have the power to move mountains according to them. All power indeed has been given in a sense, but not a selfish magical power. It is a wholesome power.I see what you're saying and I don't mean to discourage you in good endeavors. But I disagree in part. I believe Jesus fulfilled the promises of the Chosen One of God who was hidden with God from before the foundation of the world. He took these promises for Himself to save us from the world. Indeed He promised them beforehand knowing they would be His weapons and His advantage. "All power is given unto me in heaven and earth" Anyone notice that all power is given unto a human being?
As a descendant of people in the Reform who are reconstructing everything using the Bible I commiserate with you but think this attempt to view prophecies as predictions is not really going to bear good fruit.This was fulfillment of prophecy. It's for a reason; not just because He's Jesus. He took all power in human form to save us all who are in His same image. So that we could overcome all our enemies. And that's why the promises that gave such power to the Chosen One in human form were so obscure and hidden. Because the enemy could not know beforehand what He would do. Otherwise they would never have crucified Him. They're evil but not stupid.
You understand that the Targum isn't saying anything about a messiah being crucified whatsoever.Only God could have known before it happened.
Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel second century C.E.,
Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men. (Targum Jonathan)
The Hebrew word used in Isaiah is Nisa, will be raised. What you must understand is that this is a direct reference to the president of Israel, Reuven Rivlin. The president is a public servant and the title for "president" in Hebrew is "Nasi" which comes from the exact same word as nisa. So this must be a prophetic reference to the role of Israeli president!Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. (Isaiah 52:13)
Anyone that reads the Targum of Jonathan will see that it could not be talking about Jesus of Nazareth. According to that Targum the messiah will among other things: return Israelites to the land of Israel, cast sinners into hell, and destroy gentile dominion of the land of Israel. Jesus didn’t do any of those things.Only God could have known before it happened.
Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel second century C.E.,
Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men. (Targum Jonathan)
Psalms 22:16 "they pierce my hands and my feet."
If that was the only thing; then you would have a point. However this verse saying that He will be lifted up is only the beginning. It goes on to describe this person's death. So connect the dots. Lifted up - death scene - therefore it is very possible that it is alluding to a crucifixion.The Hebrew word used in Isaiah is Nisa, will be raised. What you must understand is that this is a direct reference to the president of Israel, Reuven Rivlin. The president is a public servant and the title for "president" in Hebrew is "Nasi" which comes from the exact same word as nisa. So this must be a prophetic reference to the role of Israeli president!
Two "Messiahs". The Son of Joseph and Son of David. Obviously the Messiah comes not once but twice. Jesus first coming clearly is the Son of Joseph(Even his adoptive father was Joseph) as He suffered at the hands of His brethren just as Joseph. As Joseph told his brothers how that although they meant this for his harm they should not be grieved because it was for the deliverance of a posterity in the earth and God really sent Joseph to Egypt ahead of them.Anyone that reads the Targum of Jonathan will see that it could not be talking about Jesus of Nazareth. According to that Targum the messiah will among other things: return Israelites to the land of Israel, cast sinners into hell, and destroy gentile dominion of the land of Israel. Jesus didn’t do any of those things.
You make a good point. Though I don't see any discussion in Isaiah 52 of death, if you say so, fine. In that case the text is clearly predicting Ezer Weitzman who died in 2005. Isaiah 53:8 actually uses the word "Otzer" which is possibly alluding to him! Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct my statement.If that was the only thing; then you would have a point. However this verse saying that He will be lifted up is only the beginning. It goes on to describe this person's death. So connect the dots. Lifted up - death scene - therefore it is very possible that it is alluding to a crucifixion.
Who said Isaiah 52? It's the same writing as ch. 53. Isaiah 53:9 they made his grave ... yes it is obviously about his death.You make a good point. Though I don't see any discussion in Isaiah 52 of death, if you say so, fine. In that case the text is clearly predicting Ezer Weitzman who died in 2005. Isaiah 53:8 actually uses the word "Otzer" which is possibly alluding to him! Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct my statement.