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How did Isaiah 52:13 predict that the Messiah Jesus would be crucified "lifted up"?

74x12

Well-Known Member
Without getting into the rest of your answers in that post, don't you feel like this is kind of a weak response? Even going with your interpretation of "spiritual seed" as the only alternative explanation to Gen. 21, Isaac was both Abraham's biological seed and spiritual seed. So if you wanted to draw a parallel somewhere, you'd have to find something with both properties as you don't have a precedent here for being just "spiritual seed".
I really don't even mean spiritual seed of Joseph so much as I mean that Joseph is typifying the Messiah in many ways. So calling the Messiah son of Joseph is just a way of pointing this out. Obviously the Messiah is the son of David. There is no scripture in the Tanakh that shows us that Joseph will have a strictly physical seed; the Messiah.
But we should address Gen. 22:2 as well. It doesn't say, "you're only son". It says, "you're son, you're only, whom you love, Isaac." The verse doesn't say in what aspect Isaac is an "only" to Abraham. It probably doesn't mean his "only son",
But obviously "one" is implied there yes? So "your son, your only [one] whom you love, Isaac."
Otherwise we would have to ask your only what? And the JPS agrees translating it "son".
because way back in Gen. 21:13, G-d Himself says about Ishmael, "for he is also your seed". And just a bit earlier, the verse 11 says that the "matter was evil in his eyes about his son".
Yes there is the earthly seed and spiritual seed. This may be implied when God says that He will make Abraham's seed as "the sand on the sea shore"(physical seed) and the "stars of heaven" (celestial seed). Although Ishmael would not inherit the promises of Isaac; he was made a great nation on the earth.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not really. The virgin birth is obvious as I said before, for a young woman who is not a virgin to have a son and call his name Emmanuel is not a sign. At least not a very good one. So she must be a virgin. However, I do not accept your supposition that the word parthenos does not mean virgin. In modern Greek at least Parthena is indeed a virgin. You'd have to argue the meaning has changed over time. All I'm saying is that even if you're right; it doesn't pose a problem for me either way because Matthew uses the same word. So, if you're trying to argue against Matthew then you've not succeeded.
Wrong. The sign in Isaiah 7 is not the woman giving birth. So the woman doesn’t need be be a virgin because the birth is not the sign. The sign is that before the child would know the difference between right and wrong the kings attacking Judah would be gone. That is the sign. Read this, https://outreachjudaism.org/the-virgin-birth/
He was a physical descendant of David ...
Not through his father, which is what determines his tribe. His genealogy does not qualify him to sit on David’s throne.
It doesn't mean physical offspring exactly and it can be used figuratively and it is in other places. And too God the spiritual is physical. You may be confusing the term spiritual. I believe in a spiritual reality as real as this one we are in now. Jesus' seed is all those who are born again/anew/above/whatever you prefer. (see John 3:3-5) That is indeed physical in heaven. (see 1 Cor. 15:40)
This is flat out wrong, wrong, wrong. The scripture is clear. “Zera” ONLY means physical offspring. Period. Scripture says that the servant of Isaiah 53 will have physical offspring. Scripture says that the messiah must be a physical offspring (descendant) of David. You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want. But scripture will still be true.
Alright good. Then you have a solid understanding of the story ... and we need not get bogged down in minutiae.
Should we do so you would find most of what you believe is built on the sands on the traditions of men, though you are deceived into thinking it is based on the scriptures when it really isn’t.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Wrong. The sign in Isaiah 7 is not the woman giving birth. So the woman doesn’t need be be a virgin because the birth is not the sign. The sign is that before the child would know the difference between right and wrong the kings attacking Judah would be gone. That is the sign. Read this, https://outreachjudaism.org/the-virgin-birth/
Not through his father, which is what determines his tribe. His genealogy does not qualify him to sit on David’s throne.

This is flat out wrong, wrong, wrong. The scripture is clear. “Zera” ONLY means physical offspring. Period. Scripture says that the servant of Isaiah 53 will have physical offspring. Scripture says that the messiah must be a physical offspring (descendant) of David. You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want. But scripture will still be true.

Should we do so you would find most of what you believe is built on the sands on the traditions of men, though you are deceived into thinking it is based on the scriptures when it really isn’t.
I'll respond soon. I've had some computer problems for a few days.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. (Isaiah 52:13)

and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:32)

I believe what Jesus said was in the context of the cross because He likens it to the snake on a stake but Isaiah is not mentioned by Jesus so it becomes less likely that Isaiah 52:13 is a reference to the cross. It is in context with Isaiah 53 to some extent although the cross is not directly mentioned there either. I believe it simply means that Jesus will be elevated but not by His own efforts.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Isaiah 53 isn’t about the coming messiah. You are back filling it with a Christian interpretation that is a misinterpretation. Don’t read it with “Jesus colored” glasses on.

I don't believe it matters what glasses one wears. Jesus fits the prophecy.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The idea of a prediction is something being injected into the text by the OP. This is clear imitation but not for nefarious purposes. The writing about Jesus is written centuries after Isaiah is written. A prediction would need some statement the writers of the gospels do not know about, but that is not the case. They know the reference in Isaiah while they are writing the gospel. It is written after Isaiah specifically as an allusion to Isaiah. Similarly Jesus rides on a donkey specifically to symbolize what the scripture says and as quoted the gospel explains this explicitly. (Matthew 21:4) They specifically are doing what Isaiah says. There is no implication that Isaiah has predicted any of it. Similarly Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist 'Just like' Elisha is baptized by Elijah. Its to make a point, not to be a magic trick.

I believe Peter denies this. He said that they are not devising these things. However like everyone else they can't help but notice how the prophecies are being fulfilled.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It isn’t about just what Jews believe. Many Christians have the same understanding that Isaiah 53 is simply not about the coming messiah. It isn’t about needing to convince you.

I believe anyone who doesn't think it is about the Messaih needs his head examined. Obviously the person cant tell his right hand from his left.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I believe what Jesus said was in the context of the cross because He likens it to the snake on a stake but Isaiah is not mentioned by Jesus so it becomes less likely that Isaiah 52:13 is a reference to the cross. It is in context with Isaiah 53 to some extent although the cross is not directly mentioned there either. I believe it simply means that Jesus will be elevated but not by His own efforts.
Not by His own efforts? Then why does the scripture say the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof? The cross was the way to the glory. As He said in John 17:1-5 this glory He speaks of is the glory of the cross and the resurrection.

... Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. (Rev. 5:12)
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Not through his father, which is what determines his tribe. His genealogy does not qualify him to sit on David’s throne.
If brother's can raise up their own brother's "seed" according to the Torah by marrying the widow then who are you to say? It was necessary that Jesus is the Son of God but both Mary and Joseph were of the house of David. If Jesus is really the Son of God then that pretty much nullifies any argument against Him you could make anyway.

Should we do so you would find most of what you believe is built on the sands on the traditions of men, though you are deceived into thinking it is based on the scriptures when it really isn’t.
You're not talking to someone who has never read the material. Suffice to say if I haven't read the new Testament more than you I would definitely be surprised.

This is flat out wrong, wrong, wrong. The scripture is clear. “Zera” ONLY means physical offspring. Period. Scripture says that the servant of Isaiah 53 will have physical offspring. Scripture says that the messiah must be a physical offspring (descendant) of David. You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want. But scripture will still be true.
Methinks thou dost protest too much. Indeed scripture will be true even the parts you ignore or misdirect. And btw, the scriptures make no distinction on fathers versus grand fathers or great grand fathers. The point is they are all simply "fathers". So if Mary is descended from David then that really does make Jesus the son of David.

And you seem to forget it was the "seed of a woman" that would bruise the serpent's head.
Wrong. The sign in Isaiah 7 is not the woman giving birth. So the woman doesn’t need be be a virgin because the birth is not the sign. The sign is that before the child would know the difference between right and wrong the kings attacking Judah would be gone. That is the sign. Read this, https://outreachjudaism.org/the-virgin-birth/
King Ahaz was very worried about the alliance between Ephraim and Damascus. So Isaiah the prophet comes and basically says don't worry because God will stop them and Ephraim will be crushed within 65 years. Do you want a sign Ahaz? And Ahaz replies no (in so many words) and then Isaiah responds; you've made God tired(bored); but God will give you a sign Himself (that you didn't ask for).

I believe you're partly correct that what you are claiming is the sign is indeed part of the sign. However, the part about Emmanuel is actually also part of the sign. However this would mean little for Ahaz but instead be meant for future generations.

As for the article you linked:
First your article argues that parthenos does not mean virgin. Then it argues that Christians changed the Septuagint to agree with Matthew by saying parthenos. You can't have it both ways.

Secondly, I'm fine with the idea that parthenos does not mean virgin as I stated previously. It doesn't change much for me. If Dinah is called parthenos after being raped then that's okay by me.

The article also misrepresented the book "antiquities of Jews" as saying that only the Pentateuch was translated as the original Septuagint. That's incorrect. I actually looked up the reference provided and it does not say that. Contrariwise it actually mentions that other books would also be translated.

Excerpt from Antiquities of the Jews, book 12, chapter 2, verse 4:

"... And I let you know, that we want the books of the Jewish legislation, with some others; for they are written in the Hebrew characters, and being in the language of that nation, are to us unknown. ... "

You can find the whole section here.
 
Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. (Isaiah 52:13)

and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:32)

It is the correct two Scriptures you have brought together!

Leviticus 23:21, 10-11a "reap" = "cut off" = "make riddance" = "lift up" = 23:5 "passover" = Exodus 12:6 "kill" = 15a "remove leaven/life" = Isaiah 52:13 "be lifted up".
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Not by His own efforts? Then why does the scripture say the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof? The cross was the way to the glory. As He said in John 17:1-5 this glory He speaks of is the glory of the cross and the resurrection.

... Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. (Rev. 5:12)

I believe a man can't crucify himself.

I believe that is due to the fact that He would and I believe He already has in 1974.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. (Isaiah 52:13)

and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:32)
Sometimes I wonder how in the world a Jewish text is conducive with Jesus in any fashion.

I'm fairly sure it was referring to something else.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I believe a man can't crucify himself.

I believe that is due to the fact that He would and I believe He already has in 1974.
He didn't crucify Himself, but He laid down His life as He said.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The whole gospel story is in the Hebrew scriptures and it's only accident?
No it's not. The writers of the NT fabricated a story based heavily on reinterpretations of the Tanach to lend authenticity to their narrative. The NT narrative isn't in the Tanach, the Tanach was used to derive the NT narrative. When you read the Tanach having no knowledge of the NT, you won't see any of it.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
When you read the Tanach having no knowledge of the NT, you won't see any of it.
Well I agree; unless God shows you.

No it's not. The writers of the NT fabricated a story based heavily on reinterpretations of the Tanach to lend authenticity to their narrative.
Not true. The narrative was not fabricated. Are you saying Jesus never existed?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Well I agree; unless God shows you.
Exactly. Unless you put the verses through "divinely inspired" contortions, you don't end up with the NT, you end up with Judaism.

Not true. The narrative was not fabricated. Are you saying Jesus never existed?
No, I think he existed. But I also think George Washington existed and yet there remains a famous cherry-tree chopping myth about him. It's not hard to take an historically real person and fabricate a myth about him.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Unless you put the verses through "divinely inspired" contortions, you don't end up with the NT, you end up with Judaism.
They are not contortions. I disagree there. Once it's revealed to someone and they really see it. Then it's really obvious.

No, I think he existed. But I also think George Washington existed and yet there remains a famous cherry-tree chopping myth about him. It's not hard to take an historically real person and fabricate a myth about him.
What about Moses? Did everything happen to him just that way or did they make that up also? Maybe Abraham is different than the scriptures say. Where does all this end?

My point is not to tear your faith down but to simply point out that you also have to believe. That is if you actually believe at all. I realize there are some Jews who do not believe the scriptures but practice anyway.
 
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