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Origins of god/gods

Prometheus85

Active Member
What about people who do know based on experiences with the spirit world? They dont "make up" there actual experiences.

Astral trips? More like half-asstral trips if there is such a thing, then I would like to see some evidence of them. These people use their imaginations, and people who believe them use their gullibility in order to accept it.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
Provide evidence for these claims you are making here.

If Wikipedia’s timeline of homo sapien’s evolution is anything to go by, modern man is a pretty new species, with modern humans being only 200,000 years old. But religion is, at best, 6- to 10,000 years old (depends on where you get your source from).

Religion any religion is at most 10,000 years old. So man lived for over 200,00/190,000 years and one day just got up and created gods. Why? What did man do for 190,000 years when there was no god? Why is there no historical evidence of a god prior to the recorded beginnings of the earth as in the Bible? And please ... having records of burial sites does not denote the existence of a god ... cuz even atheists bury their dead!
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Since we humans first appeared, the world was surrounded by unexplained phenomena: the rise and set of the sun and moon; the ever-changing weather, including seasons, storms and other natural disasters; as well as other things. Once human intellect reached the point of being able to comprehend time as having a past, present, and future, man realized that they would someday die which was most likely horrific and a quite depressing fact for early humans. The idea that these unexplained phenomena were controlled by possibly sympathetic Spirits, and that their psyche would survive bodily death as an immaterial entity was comforting. Those who were able to buy into this comfort woo-woo would be better able to get on with their harsh and brief lives. Evolution therefore created the first gods. A possible date for these events could be the first anatomically modern humans 150,000 years ago, or maybe the time of the Cro-magnons and the behavioral revolution 40,000 years ago.


belief that "changing weather, including seasons, storms and other natural disasters" are driven by people angering nature, is the oldest superstition known to mankind, which survives to this day in the form of global cooling/warming etc

That belief really predates the more sophisticated theistic deduction; that natural forces are themselves ultimately set in place by a higher power, 'Nature is the executor of God's laws' as Galileo put it
 

gnostic

The Lost One
How about the Christian hell, as much as I despise that idea? Is that a notion people comfort themselves with by believing in it?
I don’t think you understand that before Christianity and the churches existed, that none of Hell existed in the Old Testament writings.

The belief in the existence of Hell, was never Jewish idea. It didn’t exist before the 6th century BCE, when the elites of population in Jerusalem was living in exile in Babylon. And Hell did exist upon their return after Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to Judah/Judaea.

The Jews did believe in the afterlife, that all human spirits, good or bad, went to Sheol, but it is so vague in details, that no one back then knew what it is really about, but basically it is just a netherworld or underworld, where there were no judging you see in Christian teaching, no Heaven and no Hell.

The idea of afterlife and Hell first arose during the Hellenistic period, when Jews were influenced by Greek cults and Egyptian cults in the afterlife.

The various Greek cults believed in the judgement of the shades (spirits) by judges, and most believed that in the end, few reached the Elysian Fields, and even fewer reached Tartarus, but most ended up in parts of Erebus, known as the Plain of Asphodel, where the shades forget their past lives when they were alive (unless they drink ram or goat blood, where shades can regain their memories, temporarily, like in The Odyssey, when Odysseus visited the Underworld, to speak with the shade of the seer, Teiresias).

One cult that differed from all others, was the Orphic Mysteries. Oh, the Orphic cultists still believe in the Elysium and Tartarus, but they differed from other cults, in how you get there.

According to the Orphic myth, after dying, the Hades or the Underworld is just a short stopovers for the shades, where they are judged, to see if they deserved to be in Elysium or Tartarus.

If neither of them are available to the shades, they get “recycled” and are “reborn” in the new life as humans again, hence the Orphic cult believe in reincarnation. So a person’s soul may be judged and reincarnated many times, before Persephone’s final judgement on the soul, and either send that shade either to Elysium or Tartarus.

In the end, according the Orphic myth, the final judgement, a person’s final place in either Elysium or Tartarus, is the only way to end the cycle of rebirths or reincarnations.

But whatever beliefs in Greek cults you may believe in back then, Elysium and Tartarus are the same. Both of these places, are part of Hades or the Underworld.

Elysium, Elysian Fields, the Blessed Isles, or White Island, whatever you may call it. These are only special places, where only few get there...mostly demigods, and heroes and heroines, like Achilles, Hector or Helen.

The gods don’t reside in any of these Elysian variations; Elysium is not heaven. They, the Greek gods, all dwell in Olympus, the Greek version of heaven.

And as to Tartarus. Tartarus has always being a place, the deepest recess of Hades’ realm, was where the Titans were confined, and where only the truly wicked are eternally tormented, like Sisyphus, Tantalus are punished.

Tantalus, for instance, was favoured by the gods, allowed to dine with the gods at Olympus, or the gods would dine at Tantalus’ palace. The last time, Tantalus held banquet, he murdered in his ow son, Pelops, and tried to feed to the gods. The gods, except Demeter, recognised human flesh, moved away from table with disgust. They sent Tantalus directly to Tartarus, where he stood I the pool of water, with eternal hunger and eternal thirst. When he tried to drink from the pool, the water would drain away and vanished, but always reappear when he stood back up. And branch of fruit would dangled before him, but whenever he tried to reach for it, the fruit would pull away from him by the wind, always be out of his reach.

The Egyptians believed that all soul, known as ba and ka, were judged by Osiris and the scale of Ma’at, the goddess who was personification of the cosmic law and order, and of justice.

Anubis would weigh the deceased’s ba (sometimes depicted as a heart, sometimes as the mini version of the deceased) on one pan of the scale, while the Feather of Ma’at (depicted as an ostrich’s feather) on the other pan.

Should the ba (soul) be heavier than the feather of Ma’at, the ba get eaten by Ammit, or the “Devourer” and the deceased’s ankh (spirit) is sent to Taut, which is Egyptian version of the Greek Tartarus or the Christian Hell.

Should the ba be lighter than the feather, or the scale is “balanced”, equally, then the ankh (spirit) will resided in the Field of Reeds, which is the Egyptian version of the Greek Elysium or the Christian Heaven.

The Jews had nothing like these afterlife, until Egyptian and Greek cults influenced their religion, the Hellenistic Judaism.

The Christian idea of afterlife in heaven and hell, was directly influenced by the Hellenistic Judaism, and indirectly Egyptian and Greek religions via the Hellenistic Judaism.

Even the concept of the messiah, a martyr god, like the resurrected Jesus, is based on foreign concepts of Egyptian Osiris and Horus, and the Greek Orphic of Dionysus and Orpheus.

So yes, Christian religion of god, resurrection and the messiah, are based on foreign and pagan concepts and religions, hence man-made.

As to Buddhism, I don’t know enough to comment about it, and I am led to believe theism, the belief in the existence of deities, is either minimal or nonexistent, depending on which Buddhism we are talking about.

Isn’t the basic concept of Buddhism about human minds and spirits able to transcend the cycle of rebirths, reaching nirvana?

But since, according to traditions, such a religion was invented by
Siddhārtha Gautama, and therefore your dharmic religion is “man-made”.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I am aware the Christian view of hell is 'arguably' not Jewish @gnostic. Though as I understand it, Josephus says that some Greco-Jews believed in a hell like Hades, and specifically Tartarus. I'm aware of the intricacies of this subject. I was only criticizing the OP's inference that religious people use afterlife views as a form of comfort. It's naive at best.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I think the notion that nothing follows death would be infinitely more comforting than afterlife realms actually. Because as Epicurus noted, if death is nothing: what is it to us? Why fear it?

The OP is philosophically uninformed and not very well thought out. He makes it sound like religious people are approaching death like children afraid of it.

He could have made a much better argument if he stuck purely to the rewards aspect, rather than bringing stuff like fear of death in.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If Wikipedia’s timeline of homo sapien’s evolution is anything to go by, modern man is a pretty new species, with modern humans being only 200,000 years old. But religion is, at best, 6- to 10,000 years old (depends on where you get your source from).

Religion any religion is at most 10,000 years old. So man lived for over 200,00/190,000 years and one day just got up and created gods. Why? What did man do for 190,000 years when there was no god? Why is there no historical evidence of a god prior to the recorded beginnings of the earth as in the Bible? And please ... having records of burial sites does not denote the existence of a god ... cuz even atheists bury their dead!

You are right.

The burying of the dead, predated any evidence of religion, especially the belief of any god, or even spirits for that matter.

The belief in the afterlife, can only be definitive measured around the times of 4th millennium BCE (hence about 6000 years ago), from artefacts of Predynastic Egyptian cultures and temples of pre-Sumerian cultures (eg temples of Inanna and An, in Uruk or Erech), because they can be linked to their respective Bronze Age cultures in Egypt and Sumer.

It is only in the Bronze Age that we have recorded texts that help us identify the gods in Egypt and Sumer.

The belief in gods may exist earlier than 6000 years ago, but without writings, the prehistoric artefacts may relate to their religions, is at best, just educated guesses. The archaeologists and anthropologists don’t know for sure.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I was only criticizing the OP's inference that religious people use afterlife views as a form of comfort. It's naive at best.
Isn’t it?

We grieve for the people we lose, and some believe and find comfort that they may be “at a better place”.

But there are no evidences to support the existence of afterlife, let alone the existence of gods or spirits.

To me, they are based on wishful thinking and superstition.

The only evidences that we do have, is that we lived and we died. Some of us may have children and descendants, who may or may not remember us when we are gone.

That’s the fact.

But religions don’t present facts, they give beliefs and wishes that a person’s soul.

I used to be that person, who believed in the resurrection and afterlife. I nearly join my sister’s church when I was younger. And even during 20s and much of my 30s, I was a believer without a church.

But in the last 15 years or so, I have become more agnostic and skeptic.

Don’t get me wrong, I still like to read the bible and any other religious or mythological texts from other ancient religions, but to me, they are just stories now than a reality.

I still enjoyed reading Hesiod and Homer, Sophocles and Euripides, the Epic of Gilgamesh or other Sumerian-Babylonian texts, the Ugaritic Epic of Ba’al, and various Egyptian texts (Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book(s) of the Dead, and other papyri). I even have copies of Jewish folklore, Enoch’s and gnostic texts. But I treat these texts as treasured literature of bygone eras.

Of course, other people might think my “no existence” to be terrifying.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Since we humans first appeared, the world was surrounded by unexplained phenomena: the rise and set of the sun and moon; the ever-changing weather, including seasons, storms and other natural disasters; as well as other things. Once human intellect reached the point of being able to comprehend time as having a past, present, and future, man realized that they would someday die which was most likely horrific and a quite depressing fact for early humans. The idea that these unexplained phenomena were controlled by possibly sympathetic Spirits, and that their psyche would survive bodily death as an immaterial entity was comforting. Those who were able to buy into this comfort woo-woo would be better able to get on with their harsh and brief lives. Evolution therefore created the first gods. A possible date for these events could be the first anatomically modern humans 150,000 years ago, or maybe the time of the Cro-magnons and the behavioral revolution 40,000 years ago.
intellect so beilliant! ! And clever.
8957f895452d38c.jpg
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If Wikipedia’s timeline of homo sapien’s evolution is anything to go by, modern man is a pretty new species, with modern humans being only 200,000 years old. But religion is, at best, 6- to 10,000 years old (depends on where you get your source from).

Religion any religion is at most 10,000 years old. So man lived for over 200,00/190,000 years and one day just got up and created gods. Why? What did man do for 190,000 years when there was no god? Why is there no historical evidence of a god prior to the recorded beginnings of the earth as in the Bible? And please ... having records of burial sites does not denote the existence of a god ... cuz even atheists bury their dead!
What evidence is there that religion is only 10,000 years old?
 
Nah humans didn’t believe based on what they precieved as evidence for god. Remember early humans were surrounded unexplained phenomena. In order to explain those phenomena people had to build an idea of god or goddess.

planets, weather, sea, diseases, lightning were all attributed to the supernatural (gods)
Now you will rarely see anybody attribute gods to those, because now people know how that stuff works thanks to Science.

Ok, so your saying NO HUMANS AT ALL believed in God because they percieved evidence? Or had experiences with apparitions?

So, you speak for ALL humans? You know ALL the reasons humans believe in God? And that reason is just ONE reason, for COMFORT?
 
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"I met Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson last week." That was my actual experience, I haven't made it up.

Do you believe me?

I understand your point, but its a weak point because all these spiritual experiences are by the millions. And similar in nature. Even i have had some, so i know there real and i believe them.
 
Astral trips? More like half-asstral trips if there is such a thing, then I would like to see some evidence of them. These people use their imaginations, and people who believe them use their gullibility in order to accept it.

Astral trips are real. Near death experiences are real. There anecdotes, but there real, there not made up or imaginative.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
Astral trips are real. Near death experiences are real. There anecdotes, but there real, there not made up or imaginative.

Your response is anecdotal. It's often much easier for people to believe someone's testimony as opposed to understanding complex data.

The use of anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion is like using the NBA all-star teams to estimate the average height of Americans.

If you are basing your claims on anecdotal experience, then any and everything that can’t be explained must be because aliens or god did it!
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
Astral trips are real. Near death experiences are real. There anecdotes, but there real, there not made up or imaginative.

If near death experiences are real, prove it.

That’s a very Extraordinary claim. The ball is in your court jollybear.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
Ok, so your saying NO HUMANS AT ALL believed in God because they percieved evidence? Or had experiences with apparitions?

So, you speak for ALL humans? You know ALL the reasons humans believe in God? And that reason is just ONE reason, for COMFORT?

Your being absurd and illogical and I’m just gonna leave it at that.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
How does this support your claim. I see nothing there.

Really? You don’t see how it supports my claim? It gives u the complete timelines.


The concept of a god an imaginary entity which can control nature goes back to the time that humans started to think and rationalise the world around them. We're talking of 40,000/50,000 yrs ago, at a time when Behavioral modernity was beginning.

The first signs of organised religion as we understand it today, occurred when humans started to move from a hunter-gatherer way of life (about 12/10,000 yrs ago)to a more settled agrarian way of life. This brought them into continuous contact with others. The Holocene and the age of agriculture had begun.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Really? You don’t see how it supports my claim? It gives u the complete timelines.


The concept of a god an imaginary entity which can control nature goes back to the time that humans started to think and rationalise the world around them. We're talking of 40,000/50,000 yrs ago, at a time when Behavioral modernity was beginning.

The first signs of organised religion as we understand it today, occurred when humans started to move from a hunter-gatherer way of life (about 12/10,000 yrs ago)to a more settled agrarian way of life. This brought them into continuous contact with others. The Holocene and the age of agriculture had begun.
We now know that behavioral modernity extends to 100,000 years at least.
Oldest "Art Studio" Found; Evidence of Early Chemistry

While the fashion of cave art leads to better preservation, it seems clear now that body painting and body ornamentation was quite sophisticated and we'll developed since the beginning of modern human lineage.


Burial of the deceased with grave goods is a sure sign of belief in afterlife. And that too is attested from 100,000 years. This, along with more disputed signs of religious beliefs in Neanderthals and Homo Naledi, suggest that belief in supernatural actually predates modern humans and may have started as early as 400,000 years.

Paleolithic religion - Wikipedia
 
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