• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why do Christians defend the horrendously brutal and genocidal God of the Old Testament?

74x12

Well-Known Member
The Jews chose to call their new found country "Israel" because they wanted to connect their country with the Biblical context of the man named "Israel" who before was named Jacob.
King James Bible
And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Having directly connected their new nation to the Biblical context by calling their new nation Israel they then must comply with that narrative.

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strange in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

After the Lord gave His children the above very specific instructions; today in the name of "Israel" you find this---
I see this was a two part post. Well, if you've been over there you know it's a complicated situation. I'm sure people on both sides want peace but there are things holding it back. I can't blame Israel for wanting to defend themselves. I can't blame Palestinians for feeling angry about how things have turned out.

I feel sorry for the Palestinians. Yet, rationally I say let bygones be bygones. The world has to move on. Israel's there to stay. All the land Israel took was in wars they didn't start. So, I feel sympathy for Israel and sorry for the Palestinians. It's a mess.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Aquinas felt that much of the OT was errant because it posited God doing some pretty nasty stuff, plus he believed that if the OT was entirely word-for-word correct, then Jesus could not have been the Messiah. To him, the general OT set up Jesus and his message so that it did have at least that as being its validity.

I'd love a reference for Aquinas saying this because the Church teaches the Hebrew Scriptures are infallible, and if he thought that, he'd be in disagreement with the Magestarium- and not a saint.
 

Neb

Active Member
Okay I'll get a little bit more serious about it. The honest answer is nobody knows yet. But there's excellent fact-based theories that has gotten us substantially closer to answering the questions. I wouldn't be surprised to see the answer for the start of like to be solved this century.

We have LUCA in astrobiology.

How Did Life Start On Earth? | Las Cumbres Observatory

More on par would be here in explaining the relationships that are involved with organic and inorganic molecules that bring about metabolism necessary for life. You can't have life without organic molecules, and you can't have life without inorganic.


https://phys.org/news/2015-03-chemists-riddle-life-began-earth.html


Last there are biological viruses which meets both the definition of non life and life. In my opinion, it's the best study to understand the connection involved with understanding the relationships concerning non-life and life.

The difference between life and non life
Got you digging those links, right? I thought you knew this stuff from the heart when you said
Yes. It's fact. Not an argument.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'd love a reference for Aquinas saying this because the Church teaches the Hebrew Scriptures are infallible, and if he thought that, he'd be in disagreement with the Magestarium- and not a saint.
It was found in a book I read several decades ago entitled "Aquinas and the Jews", if my memory is correct. However, I just ran across it again in James Hitchcock's "History of the Catholic Church".

The church's position has always been that there can be minor errors found within the scriptures but that they're not serious enough to negate the main teachings found within.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Got you digging those links, right? I thought you knew this stuff from the heart when you said
No. It wasn't hard. People tend to gravitate towards the experts rather than an unknown poster on an Internet forum.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

Why do Christians even attempt to defend this, and then further say God is always good and righteous when in fact much of the Old Testament is choc full of God's actions and deeds that point to the extreme opposite of what good and righteousness is supposed to be?

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


Isn’t the God of the Old Testament Harsh, Brutal, Downright Evil?

Same question could go for Jews and Muslims as well.

This is the authority of their belief. Without it their beliefs have none.

It's usually justified by accepting these acts were committed against a evil people and therefore just.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
But if that is the case, then you are also unable to say that you "know" that non-corporeal things actually exist. You just assume it. Because, of course, you are yourself just a corporeal person.

I think I am also spiritual person, and it means:

Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:14-15
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Do you have any idea, that those people were not fully human beings, that God had put to death in the old testament.
So now they aren't even just bad people in your eyes, but subhuman? Is there some viral challenge out there in the internet to see just how fast and how deeply one can demonize others?

What I meant is from molecule to man, how life began from non-life to life?
Amino acids - RNA - DNA - enclosed DNA - protocells - cells - cellular colonies - multicellular creatures with specialized tissues.

You mean, "Why not let the Japanesse continue their processes like unto the rape of Nanking continue for years, the killing of babies, the torturing of innocent, the destruction of many innocent people?"
Countries have always done that and do that now. How come we only care about moral outrage when they attack us or threaten our money? I don't question that bad guys should be punished, only why innocent people should be punished only after we feel personally offended by it. We didn't exactly rush to kill these guys, either Japanese or Italian or German, Ken. We sat on it, relished in it, until we were personally inconvenienced. Had we cared at the START of the war instead of waiting until nearly the end of it, maybe we wouldn't have to burn clothing patterns into people's skins and kill them painfully and slowly for things most of them didn't do. We created Muslim terrorists. We created Native resistance. We created ALL of our monsters, Ken. Our own current President idolizes dictators for "strength" and can't stand to be in the room with democratically elected people who don't kowtow to him. There we are, pointing out specks in the eyes of others, and ignoring the entire forests' worth of beams in our own. War is the option for the intellectually lazy and the greedy. Diplomacy and economics are insanely powerful tools, but they require more elbow grease, so we don't tend to use them. We have been fighting someone for nearly our entire history as a nation, including the decades prior to becoming an independent one. THAT, dear readers, is why we tolerate the violence in the bible: we drench our flag in its image every day.

Now after reviewing the above do you believe the Israelis’ are living up to God’s expectations of them?
Not sure if we ever agree, but a to the men on this one.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So now they aren't even just bad people in your eyes, but subhuman?
.
Being the Book of Joshua, I'm sure he was referring to the Canaanites.

Ancient DNA was extracted from the early Canaanites and found they could trace it to people actually living today.

They were never exterminated, even though the Bible alleges that. A fatal flaw to the theology. God obviously failed in his attempt at genocide.

At any rate, they look like pretty regular run of the mill human beings to me.

God and his minions knows better than to make another attempt at genocide in this era. "0)
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
So now they aren't even just bad people in your eyes, but subhuman? Is there some viral challenge out there in the internet to see just how fast and how deeply one can demonize others?


Amino acids - RNA - DNA - enclosed DNA - protocells - cells - cellular colonies - multicellular creatures with specialized tissues.


Countries have always done that and do that now. How come we only care about moral outrage when they attack us or threaten our money? I don't question that bad guys should be punished, only why innocent people should be punished only after we feel personally offended by it. We didn't exactly rush to kill these guys, either Japanese or Italian or German, Ken. We sat on it, relished in it, until we were personally inconvenienced. Had we cared at the START of the war instead of waiting until nearly the end of it, maybe we wouldn't have to burn clothing patterns into people's skins and kill them painfully and slowly for things most of them didn't do. We created Muslim terrorists. We created Native resistance. We created ALL of our monsters, Ken. Our own current President idolizes dictators for "strength" and can't stand to be in the room with democratically elected people who don't kowtow to him. There we are, pointing out specks in the eyes of others, and ignoring the entire forests' worth of beams in our own. War is the option for the intellectually lazy and the greedy. Diplomacy and economics are insanely powerful tools, but they require more elbow grease, so we don't tend to use them. We have been fighting someone for nearly our entire history as a nation, including the decades prior to becoming an independent one. THAT, dear readers, is why we tolerate the violence in the bible: we drench our flag in its image every day.


Not sure if we ever agree, but a to the men on this one.


Had you any understanding and knowledge what the Bible Confirm's, Unto which you don't have a clue.
Which you criticize and not knowing why certain things were done in the old testament of the bible.
If you spent as much time studying as you do criticizing you may find out things are not as you think they are.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Being the Book of Joshua, I'm sure he was referring to the Canaanites.

Ancient DNA was extracted from the early Canaanites and found they could trace it to people actually living today.

They were never exterminated, even though the Bible alleges that. A fatal flaw to the theology. God obviously failed in his attempt at genocide.

At any rate, they look like pretty regular run of the mill human beings to me.

God and his minions knows better than to make another attempt at genocide in this era. "0)

You do know there were two Canaanites in the bible, so which are which and who is who. Go Figure again.
 
In fact, the biblical scriptures haven proven to be historically and prophetically accurate which certainly has bearing on the reality of this world and demonstrates the supernatural hand of God as the One who inspired the writings.

Please provide some of this evidence. So far, after years of asking for empirical, verifiable evidence from an unbiased source that supports the bible, theists like you have failed to present such evidence. If the evidence were there I'd be a believer.


All that page presented was unsubstantiated statements. Where is their supporting evidence for their claims?
 
:facepalm:

Reread my post you qouted. I am not into repeating myself to answer the same question over and over.

Ah, you have reading comprehension issues. Let me explain it to you so you understand. We are discussing the God of the bible, specifically the OT. The god of the OT demands obedience and punishes those that are not obedient multiple times in the OT. If you are talking about a different god then you are in the wrong thread.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Ah, you have reading comprehension issues. Let me explain it to you so you understand. We are discussing the God of the bible, specifically the OT. The god of the OT demands obedience and punishes those that are not obedient multiple times in the OT. If you are talking about a different god then you are in the wrong thread.

Nope he demands Netflix and chocolate milkshakes. I see your point making up stuff is great fun!
 
The toughest part for me was reasoning in the atrocities described in the Old Testament, and even some books of the Apocrypha. Essentially I had moved at all the side and concentrated on the good aspects of the New Testament.

I remember various pastors trying to justify by saying God isn't a touchy-feely deity but rather that of a God of Wrath and vengeance as well, then go on in the next sentence to say God is a god of grace and mercy and love and kindness and happiness in the same sentence.

My best days when I got into Christianity was right at the start. Everything was alive God angels what not. I had a collection in a small booklet I had handmade chock-full of versus my Bible was highlighted to and fro throughout the pages of things that had struck me and had impacted in my early Christian life. There was Brotherhood and Sisterhood, many good times and memories at the coffee house pointing out verses and talking about him. For me it was living and true Christianity. Unfortunately there comes a point where you look Beyond what could be referred to as beginners mind and the things that you originally ignored and put on the side now come out of the woodwork to such an extent they could not be ignored.

.

I've also listen to sermons and preaching of that kind. But the church organization that I used to belong to always tried to put his actions symbolically or something like that. I never really understood it.

I think my best days in the church organization that I use to belong too was when a fellow church member would hold a bible study at his house. I would get out of school which wasn't a kind place to be nor was my home so going to his house with a bunch of other guys and girls eat and just study the bible.
 
Like I said you have no understanding, why God did certain things in the old testament.

Maybe before you go criticizing the old testament, at lease get an understanding, why God did certain things in the old testament, before you go criticizing.

No, I'm going to criticize child killers. There is no justification for that, especially for a supposed all-powerful god that could have resolved the situation without killing the kids.
 
Do we know all,there is to know to be able to make such a statement? What is a best universe? We are only one planet in it and there is so much unexplored and unknown that I don’t think we are in a position to make such a call.

A competent creator that was good wouldn't create a world that has such an abundance of needless, pointless suffering on it.
 
God is called a consuming fire. That's what I based my argument off of. Yes He does have the nature of pure force in His holiness. Holiness is set apart. So it literally pains God to see evil or what not. That being said, He restrains/withholds wrath because of His love nature. No He isn't portrayed as being sadistic. That really is an opinion. God goes by the rule of "fair warning" btw. God always warns humanity.
1. Respectfully, You don't get to speak for all humans. So you're wrong to say God is not good by human standards or understanding.
2. Even if all humans did agree; that doesn't mean they're correct. Truth is a constant after all. Truth cannot be invented only discovered. Almost all humans have been wrong before and there is nothing stopping them being wrong again.

No, it is not an opinion. Jesus taught that people go to a fiery hell where they are conscious and feel pain. I understand that as a believer you want to IGNORE things that are in YOUR scriptures in plain English because it refutes the god you WANT to exist. However, the god described by the OT and NT is a vengeful, violent, and sadistic god. Since I don't have reading comprehension issues or a bias, I have no need to twist what's in the bible to mean what it clearly doesn't say.
 
Top