Evolution vs Intelligent design/creationism

[Mister Silver]

My position is that non-physical entities can affect the physical and that can be detected. But that is not predictable so it can't be studied by the scientific method.

Also, there are psychic senses we possess that can perceive what physical senses and instruments can not.

I like watching Ghost Hunters, too, doesn't mean I accept it as more than a fictionally based reality show that caters to people who believe in ghosts even the show itself has provided no real evidence of ghosts.

 

[QuestioningMind]

My position is that non-physical entities can affect the physical and that can be detected. But that is not predictable so it can't be studied by the scientific method.

Also, there are psychic senses we possess that can perceive what physical senses and instruments can not.

Okay... but you still haven't told me what method you use to determine if something actually exists. Is it a matter of if it just 'feels' true to you?

 

[George-ananda]

I like watching Ghost Hunters, too, doesn't mean I accept it as more than a fictionally based reality show that caters to people who believe in ghosts even the show itself has provided no real evidence of ghosts.

I think it's showbizzed up, but they don't invent stuff though. There are real people on there telling real experiences.

 

[George-ananda]

Okay... but you still haven't told me what method you use to determine if something actually exists. Is it a matter of if it just 'feels' true to you?

It is actuallly a logical process. I consider everything and believe what is most reasonable to believe. The evidence for the existence of the paranormal is to me overwhelming .

 

[QuestioningMind]

It is actuallly a logical process. I consider everything and believe what is most reasonable to believe. The evidence for the existence of the paranormal is to me overwhelming .

I suppose I've learned too much over the years about how the human brain can cause hallucinations that are indistinguishable from reality to rule out the possibility that any 'supernatural' experience is anything more than a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's like claims of alien abduction. They've been around for a long time, but soon after Spielberg's Close Encounters movie came out where the aliens were depicted as short gray bald with large luminous black eyes, suddenly 90% of the abduction claims started describing the aliens as short gray bald with large black luminous eyes. These people can pass lie detector tests and genuinely believe that these abductions happened, but it seems far more reasonable to me they experienced some sort of brain glitch that conjured this image that has been burned into our societal consciousness.

 

[George-ananda]

I suppose I've learned too much over the years about how the human brain can cause hallucinations that are indistinguishable from reality to rule out the possibility that any 'supernatural' experience is anything more than a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's like claims of alien abduction. They've been around for a long time, but soon after Spielberg's Close Encounters movie came out where the aliens were depicted as short gray bald with large luminous black eyes, suddenly 90% of the abduction claims started describing the aliens as short gray bald with large black luminous eyes. These people can pass lie detector tests and genuinely believe that these abductions happened, but it seems far more reasonable to me they experienced some sort of brain glitch that conjured this image that has been burned into our societal consciousness.

Well, with all the paranormal claims I have heard over the decades that include physical phenomena, multiple witnesses, quality of witnesses, knowledge not reasonably known through normal channels, etc., I am not believing 100% can be explained away as mental creations. I believe a more sophisticated explanation (paranormal) is involved in many of these cases.

(And aliens are a different subject than paranormal phenomena.) I have opinions about that too but we are already off this thread topic.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So as a believer in evolution I would like to hear the side of creationism or intelligent design. Why do you believe that they are true. I know that evolution hasnt been proven, but there is strong evidence to point in that direction. Let me know what you think.

I suggest there is strong evidence to show mechanistic, mindless evolution is true and strong evidence suggesting ID.

Read, pray, choose.

 

[David T]

So as a believer in evolution I would like to hear the side of creationism or intelligent design. Why do you believe that they are true. I know that evolution hasnt been proven, but there is strong evidence to point in that direction. Let me know what you think.

So why do people find it necessary to engage crank crackpot ideas. I suppose I could go into a science forum and go into the string theory forum and engage that!!! Or a go to the self contained perpetual motion machine theory forum but why bother.? I just mock all that as it tries to enter into this forum site. We already have enough nonsense here.

 

[Ponder This]

I suppose that intelligence is required to understand the theory of evolution.

 

[Darkstorn]

My position is that non-physical entities can affect the physical and that can be detected. But that is not predictable so it can't be studied by the scientific method.

So they can be detected, just not by the scientific method?

What method of detection are you proposing then? Bear in mind that if they can affect the physical, which IS ENTIRELY IN THE REALM OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, then by your own claim they are detectable by the scientific method.

Nor have you explained what's "non-physical" in relation to physical.

I find your position here untenable at best. You can't even defend your own claim.

 

[George-ananda]

So they can be detected, just not by the scientific method?

What method of detection are you proposing then? Bear in mind that if they can affect the physical, which IS ENTIRELY IN THE REALM OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, then by your own claim they are detectable by the scientific method.

Nor have you explained what's "non-physical" in relation to physical.

I find your position here untenable at best. You can't even defend your own claim.

Here is what I am saying. Spiritual entities are not directly detectable by physical senses and instruments as they are composed of matter of the subtle/spiritual planes of nature. These planes contain matter/energy that are at vibrational rates and in dimensions that the physical can not detect.

Then I went on to say, these real but undetectable entities can affect the physical and that EFFECT we can see with our physical senses. But conventional science will have a hard time studying this because these EFFECTS occur at unpredictable times and places.

I hope this clarifies what I said and you will see I am presenting no contradictory positions.

 

[SinSaber]

I believe there is some kind of blend. If you read Isaiah, it shows the earth is much older than we initially believe in the Bible. Try looking up the several Old Earth creation theories.

 

[scott777]

I think you are confusing the words evidence with proof. I disagree that it has no evidence. People describing things at a distance; knowing events around them in NDEs with no higher brain functioning occurring; ghostly phenomena; spirit communication revealing things not reasonably known by the receiver through ordinary processes, etc.. I have looked into these things and do believe evidence for consciousness without physical apparatus does exist. Yes, it is just my serious opinion on the cumulative evidence from multiple fields of the paranormal.

I have come to believe that in normal waking consciousness we have interpenetrating physical and super-physical (astral/mental) bodies. In the normal awake state consciousness is using the physical brain to be part of the physical world, so damage to the brain will cause a damaged ability to express normal consciousness. However at death and other traumatic events the astral/mental body can separate from the physical and experience consciousness without the physical platform (as reported in things like NDEs).

I’m not sure any of this is really evidence unless conducted within controlled experiment. What’s your best piece of ‘evidence’?

I can see and hear things in Australia while I sit on my computer in London. That’s not evidence of the supernatural and doesn’t mean I’m out of my body.

I might agree that we could connect with information through channels we don’t understand, such as particles and waves. But none of that means evidence of such outer body consciousness.

 

[George-ananda]

I’m not sure any of this is really evidence unless conducted within controlled experiment. What’s your best piece of ‘evidence’?

Well perhaps science operates by controlled physical experiments, but I think science's reach is limited at this time (in fact 95% of the matter in the universe is not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments; so-called dark matter). I think science is great, but I learn about existence by ways in addition to science including an analysis of human experiences and eastern/Vedic wisdom traditions.

I can see and hear things in Australia while I sit on my computer in London. That’s not evidence of the supernatural and doesn’t mean I’m out of my body.

We agree on that example.

I might agree that we could connect with information through channels we don’t understand, such as particles and waves. But none of that means evidence of such outer body consciousness.

Agreed, but my beliefs come from the teachings of eastern/Vedic and other esoteric wisdom traditions that I have found have an explanatory model of reality that is beyond western science and religion. These traditions have a reach beyond western science and explain phenomena the west calls paranormal and either dismisses or tries to explain away. These wisdom traditions show how the so-called paranormal is really just part and parcel of the normal in an expanded understanding of the universe.

 

[ArtieE]

Well perhaps science operates by controlled physical experiments, but I think science's reach is limited at this time (in fact 95% of the matter in the universe is not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments; so-called dark matter). I think science is great, but I learn about existence by ways in addition to science including an analysis of human experiences and eastern/Vedic wisdom traditions.

We agree on that example.
Agreed, but my beliefs come from the teachings of eastern/Vedic and other esoteric wisdom traditions that I have found have an explanatory model of reality that is beyond western science and religion. These traditions have a reach beyond western science and explain phenomena the west calls paranormal and either dismisses or tries to explain away. These wisdom traditions show how the so-called paranormal is really just part and parcel of the normal in an expanded understanding of the universe.

Has all this ever led to us learning anything useful about the universe or expanded our knowledge about the universe?

 

[George-ananda]

Has all this ever led to us learning anything useful about the universe or expanded our knowledge about the universe?

Absolutely, It has taught me of the universe beyond the physically observable realm and shown me that we really are spiritual beings in a physical body. To me that is much more useful than knowing the physics behind quasars and black holes or whatever.

 

[ArtieE]

Absolutely, It has taught me of the universe beyond the physically observable realm and shown me that we really are spiritual beings in a physical body. To me that is much more useful than knowing the physics behind quasars and black holes or whatever.

What do you use knowing "that we really are spiritual beings in a physical body" for? What is it useful for?

 

[George-ananda]

What do you use knowing "that we really are spiritual beings in a physical body" for? What is it useful for?

Only for understanding the purpose and meaning of life and from that, how to best live my life.

 

[ArtieE]

Only for understanding the purpose and meaning of life and from that, how to best live my life.

What is the purpose and meaning of life then?

 

[George-ananda]

What is the purpose and meaning of life then?

To increasingly realize the Oneness/God/Brahman through a life of love, peace and detachment. Science can not give purpose and meaning.