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About America And Guns.

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Per the article, they wouldn't issue guns to "all teachers, then to all bus drivers".
It doesn't support the badger's claim.

But for teachers who are trained & want to carry, I find this reasonable.
Schools don't have much security, & the status quo of requiring everyone
to be defenseless is not reasonable.
First of all that's just what was legislated not what was proposed. You can go to pretty much any comments section about school shootings and see people proposing arming teachers and faculty, and I bet if I spent a minute on Google I could find someone proposing arming buses too.

Second of all, creating a potential Crossfire situation and small, deliberately confined spaces with thin walls is not reasonable or intelligent. I'd rather the teachers focus on protecting the students then going off to meet an assailant.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
First of all that's just what was legislated not what was proposed. You can go to pretty much any comments section about school shootings and see people proposing arming teachers and faculty, and I bet if I spent a minute on Google I could find someone proposing arming buses too.
If discussion of gun control is to be based upon the most idiotic comments to
be found on the internet, then be careful that your advocacy of more gun control
isn't hoist by its own petard. (There are extreme idiots on your side too.)
Second of all, creating a potential Crossfire situation and small, deliberately confined spaces with thin walls is not reasonable or intelligent. I'd rather the teachers focus on protecting the students then going off to meet an assailant.
You oppose teachers going off to seek out the assailant.
So do I. So that scenario isn't an argument against armed teachers.
I think of self defense, rather than offense.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The rare exceptions of a women obsessed with guns does not negate the significant male obsession with the "wild west fantasy" in this country.
I never said it did, just pointed out that wild west fantasy is not unique to males therefore it's reasonable to assume that the reasons are not just gender-based. People are more complicated than that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I never said it did, just pointed out that wild west fantasy is not unique to males therefore it's reasonable to assume that the reasons are not just gender-based. People are more complicated than that.
Too many people make gun control about attacking the straw man of the impotent
male who is 'compensating'. I know many gals who are into guns....& it's not because
of penis envy. For some it's a sport, for some it's about self defense.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... I need him to exhibit Revoltingest's Law, ie,
gun control arguments always devolve into someone shouting "Tiny penis!"

... after which you always seem to glance down and get defensive. Meanwhile, the fetishization of the 2nd Amendment is a sick and dangerous cultural marker, the effects of which distinguish us from the rest of the civilized world.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If discussion of gun control is to be based upon the most idiotic comments to
be found on the internet, then be careful that your advocacy of more gun control
isn't hoist by its own petard. (There are extreme idiots on your side too.)

You oppose teachers going off to seek out the assailant.
So do I. So that scenario isn't an argument against armed teachers.
I think of self defense, rather than offense.
You asked who is proposing it, I said who. You didn't say who is implementing it, or where is this popular. If you want to be anal about the precision of badgers words, you could do it too. :p

Thin walls and populous confined spaces don't care if the crossfire is coming from the defensive or the offensive. I'd rather guns not be there. I'd rather we work on the reason shootings are happening, then the Band-Aid which ends up making an unsafe situation worse.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No one in their right mind needs an assault weapon to protect their home, their family, or themselves. No one. If they live in that dangerous of a neighborhood they should move. It's simply not habitable.

And without assault weapons, this Vegas shooter could not have killed and injured anywhere near as many people as he did. These are just simple, obvious facts. So the question is why won't we ban assault weapons, when they are completely unnecessary for hunting, sport, or self-defense?

And the answer is because a lot of American men are living in their own fantasy of the "wild west", wherein they imagine themselves to be the lone cowboy, out in the wilderness, living by his own strength and wits, in an "every-man-for-himself" Darwinist adventure environment. And he really LIKES this fantasy because it makes him feel powerful and autonomous, when the reality in which he lives makes him feel anything BUT powerful and autonomous.

So he piles up the guns, and the knives, and the ammo, and he plays with them when he can, and dreams about using them to 'obliterate the bad guys', as he wallows in that fantasy of power and autonomy that these weapons help him maintain. Because it makes him feel so much better than his reality does. A reality in which he has become just another cog in the rich man's money pump. With no escape, no power, no respect, no voice, and no hope of positive adventure.

The American male CANNOT let go of this "wild west" fantasy and accept the ugly reality of the totally interdependent society in which he now lives. And owning guns is a very important part of maintaining that "wild west" fantasy. That fantasy of personal power and autonomy that he can't get in real life, anymore. And he needs that fantasy so badly that he's willing to let other people's children, husbands, wives, friends, and loved ones be killed for it.

Many thousands of gun deaths every year in this country are not "the price of freedom", as has recently been claimed. It's the price of that wild west fantasy that modern American men just cannot let go of.

Until we address this cultural emasculation of men, and their loss of personal power and autonomy, we will never get our society to impose reasonable and effective gunregulation. Greedy gun manufacturers and their paid whores in the legislature are a problem, but they are not the ultimate problem. The ultimate problem is the cultural emasculation of men, and their requisite NEED to feel empowered, and autonomous. And nothing does that for them right now, in our culture, like owning a gun.

And that's what has to change.

You make some good points, particularly in addressing the cultural aspects, although it's not just the "wild west."

Some of it is also religious-inspired, as many people are stockpiling weapons, food, and other supplies in anticipation of the end of the world.

I also think that the Cold War and the widespread fears of nuclear war contributed to the survivalist mentality, along with countless movies showing post-nuclear aftermath or some kind of "zombie apocalypse" in which have a large cache of weapons would come in handy.

Then there's also crime itself - gangs, organized crime, etc. - and this too has become widespread and ingrained in the culture to some degree.

But added to that is a generally apathetic, cold, and harsh attitude towards the suffering of others and even the value of human life. This is why the issue gets so emotional. I recall last week, just after the Las Vegas shootings, people kept saying "don't make it political, let's at least mourn the victims first," but it kept turning political just the same. I think this is where the rubber meets the road and why these discussions get so emotional and both sides become entrenched.

This may relate to your point about "emasculation," since men are expected to be rough and tough. We can handle a bloody nose, and we honor those who sacrifice themselves to save others. We're supposed to laugh in the face of death, because we fear nothing.

Historically, we've been a warlike, militaristic society from the very beginning. Every citizen on the frontier was automatically "militia" because they perceived themselves in almost a virtual constant "state of war" with the Native inhabitants. While that eventually ended, the same mentality transformed into what we became as a result of the World Wars and the Cold War, as fears of evil, tyrannical regimes overseas compelled many Americans to want to remain ever-vigilant.

I think many on the right-wing see themselves as "guardians" or "protectors" or some kind of "warrior," and they see the left/liberal gun control advocates as being "weak sisters," "wimps," and/or otherwise too naive about the ways of the world and all the "dangers" we face. They might see the liberals as too soft, letting their emotions cloud their judgment and blinding them to what "real men" have to do.

That's one reason these debates go nowhere and the gun control issue generally gets deadlocked politically. It's a lot of bickering over endless statistics, the wording of Constitutional amendments, long dry technical explanations of the inner workings of firearms - it all just seems like a lot of beating around the bush and missing the elephant in the living room.

That's why I think you're on to something with your point about men and emasculation.

The Right sees the Left as a bunch of wimps, while the Left sees the Right as a bunch of simps. (I'm not a poet and I know it.)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
... after which you always seem to glance down and get defensive. Meanwhile, the fetishization of the 2nd Amendment is a sick and dangerous cultural marker, the effects of which distinguish us from the rest of the civilized world.
Well, I find your obsession with pursuing security by ever more government control uncivilized & irrational.
Are you going to "glance down & get defensive" now?

Hah! I saw you look!
Ew.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You asked who is proposing it, I said who. You didn't say who is implementing it, or where is this popular. If you want to be anal about the precision of badgers words, you could do it too. :p
Is this your admission of error?
Blaming it on your using less precision of speech?

Pleas excuse my thinking that the badger meant what he actually said.
Thin walls and populous confined spaces don't care if the crossfire is coming from the defensive or the offensive. I'd rather guns not be there. I'd rather we work on the reason shootings are happening, then the Band-Aid which ends up making an unsafe situation worse.
I'll wager that we already agree that addressing the mental problems of the
perps is worth doing, & that this has received far too little attention so far.
(Don't hold yer breath waiting for this to change for the better.
But that's an independent issue which hasn't negated the need for self defense.

Here's the problem we're addressing.
There's no choice available to make guns "not there".
The perp who would shoot people in a school has a gun.
So guns in schools is a given.
The question is whether anyone else in the school should have one too....for defense.

Btw, I've never actually seen any "thin walls" in any schools. They've always been concrete block.
But this does raise an oft overlooked important issue, ie, "safe" ammunition should be used.
This is typically the frangible type, which breaks up upon hitting anything, even drywall.
Magsafe & Glaser are examples. I carry Glaser Blue, which is small lead shot encased in plastic.
Such ammo should be the only kind legal to carry in such situations....IMO.

Sorry for getting all technical.
Now we may all go back to pointing at each other's genitals.
 
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BSM1

What? Me worry?
No one in their right mind needs an assault weapon to protect their home, their family, or themselves. No one. If they live in that dangerous of a neighborhood they should move. It's simply not habitable.

And without assault weapons, this Vegas shooter could not have killed and injured anywhere near as many people as he did. These are just simple, obvious facts. So the question is why won't we ban assault weapons, when they are completely unnecessary for hunting, sport, or self-defense?

And the answer is because a lot of American men are living in their own fantasy of the "wild west", wherein they imagine themselves to be the lone cowboy, out in the wilderness, living by his own strength and wits, in an "every-man-for-himself" Darwinist adventure environment. And he really LIKES this fantasy because it makes him feel powerful and autonomous, when the reality in which he lives makes him feel anything BUT powerful and autonomous.

So he piles up the guns, and the knives, and the ammo, and he plays with them when he can, and dreams about using them to 'obliterate the bad guys', as he wallows in that fantasy of power and autonomy that these weapons help him maintain. Because it makes him feel so much better than his reality does. A reality in which he has become just another cog in the rich man's money pump. With no escape, no power, no respect, no voice, and no hope of positive adventure.

The American male CANNOT let go of this "wild west" fantasy and accept the ugly reality of the totally interdependent society in which he now lives. And owning guns is a very important part of maintaining that "wild west" fantasy. That fantasy of personal power and autonomy that he can't get in real life, anymore. And he needs that fantasy so badly that he's willing to let other people's children, husbands, wives, friends, and loved ones die for it.

Many thousands of gun deaths every year in this country are not "the price of freedom", as has recently been claimed. It's the price of that wild west fantasy that modern American men just cannot let go of.

Until we address this cultural emasculation of men, and their loss of personal power and autonomy in a cultural and economic system created for and run by the wealthy elite, we will never get our society to impose reasonable and effective gun regulation. Greedy gun manufacturers and their paid whores in the legislature are a problem, but they are not the ultimate problem. The ultimate problem is the cultural emasculation of men, and their requisite NEED to feel empowered, and autonomous. And nothing does that for them right now, in our culture, like owning a gun.

And that's what has to change.

Two things:

1. I have been in the home security business for over 30 years. I have done trailers and I have done homes that cost north of 2 million dollars. Trust me, there is no such thing as a safe neighborhood when it comes to someone invading your home with bad intentions; and these types have no problem hurting you or your family. If you chose to use a weapon to protect yourself and your loved ones I totally recommend one with the largest magazine capacity available. If you shoot an intruder that you feel is going to hurt or even kill you, then you want to make sure that person never gets up again. Harsh, yes. Cold blooded, maybe. But rather you like it or not reality has a way of biting you no matter what your opinion maybe. BTW, if you get past my alarm system and my wife's stupid dog then you cease being human and you just became "target". Being a lousy shot, I am going to hit you dead center with as many shots as I can. Don't like it? Tough, don't break into my house with me there.

2. Do you advocate confiscating all the firearms that now exist in private hands throughout the US?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Some of it is also religious-inspired, as many people are stockpiling weapons, food, and other supplies in anticipation of the end of the world.
Many of us atheists (especially in my area) are also 2nd Amendment fans too.
But note that many oppose guns for religious reasons. It's fine with me if they
don't believe in violence for self defense, but that should be a personal choice,
& not one imposed upon others.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Pleas excuse my thinking that he meant what he actually said.
Please excuse me for thinking you met what you said, that you wanted an example of someone proposing what badger said. Or is this an admission of imprecise language on your part?

But that's an independent issue
No it isn't. If someone is bleeding out you don't say 'we both agree we need to stop the bleeding but in the mean time they have an iron deficiemcy, we should use this time to give them an iron supplement.' Especially thay if you give an iron supplementtosomeone in a medical crisis could cause vomiting and make things worse.
Point being, the best way to defend kids from shooting is most decidedly not increasing risk of crossfire, it's to keep guns entering schools. Which saying 'it's going to happen no matter what we do' imo, to be defeatist and scaremongering.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No one in their right mind needs an assault weapon to protect their home, their family, or themselves. No one. If they live in that dangerous of a neighborhood they should move. It's simply not habitable.

No one can buy assault weapons as of 1986, so this conversation is moot.

Who are you to determine what I or anyone else needs to protect our families?

Secondly, the constitution is abundantly clear on this issue - our guns are to protect us specifically from our own government. After being disarmed and terrorized by King George the founding fathers wanted to make sure that crap never could happen in their new country. If you don't like the American way you can always move as there are plenty of nice places... With less freedom.. lol
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Two things:

1. I have been in the home security business for over 30 years. I have done trailers and I have done homes that cost north of 2 million dollars. Trust me, there is no such thing as a safe neighborhood when it comes to someone invading your home with bad intentions; and these types have no problem hurting you or your family. If you chose to use a weapon to protect yourself and your loved ones I totally recommend one with the largest magazine capacity available. If you shoot an intruder that you feel is going to hurt or even kill you, then you want to make sure that person never gets up again. Harsh, yes. Cold blooded, maybe. But rather you like it or not reality has a way of biting you no matter what your opinion maybe. BTW, if you get past my alarm system and my wife's stupid dog then you cease being human and you just became "target". Being a lousy shot, I am going to hit you dead center with as many shots as I can. Don't like it? Tough, don't break into my house with me there.

2. Do you advocate confiscating all the firearms that now exist in private hands throughout the US?
Speaking of scaremongering, in the literal sense of making a buck off fears instead of actually working to make communities safer.
Edit: or replace 'safer' with 'more free' for those with delusions that more guns make America more free.
fe055d771889c1cd2a1236e2c3fde12d.jpg
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Please excuse me for thinking you met what you said, that you wanted an example of someone proposing what badger said. Or is this an admission of imprecise language on your part?
I sense an attempt to be clever in evading my catching your error...
but I don't understand what you posted.
No it isn't. If someone is bleeding out you don't say 'we both agree we need to stop the bleeding but in the mean time they have an iron deficiemcy, we should use this time to give them an iron supplement.' Especially thay if you give an iron supplementtosomeone in a medical crisis could cause vomiting and make things worse.
Point being, the best way to defend kids from shooting is most decidedly not increasing risk of crossfire, it's to keep guns entering schools. Which saying 'it's going to happen no matter what we do' imo, to be defeatist and scaremongering.
I don't understand this either.
I'm not proposing letting anyone bleed out or suffer an iron deficiency.

Do you object to my saying that addressing mental health problems is important,
but independent from the issue of allowing qualified teachers to be armed?
I favor pursuing both paths to mitigate violence in schools & elsewhere.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Speaking of scaremongering, in the literal sense of making a buck off fears instead of actually working to make communities safer.
fe055d771889c1cd2a1236e2c3fde12d.jpg
Woe unto those who would start a war of cartoons with an actual
cartoon character....especially an unbalanced & volatile one.
liberal+fruit+loops.jpg
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No one can buy assault weapons as of 1986, so this conversation is moot.
The 1986 law didn't actually regulate any assault weapons, only look-alikes.
Assault weapons (those capable of fully automatic operation) were restricted
in the 1934 National Firearms Act. And they're still legal if one obtains the
license required to own them....not a cheap or easy process.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The 1986 law didn't actually regulate any assault weapons, only look-alikes.
Assault weapons (those capable of fully automatic operation) were restricted
in the 1934 National Firearms Act. And they're still legal if one obtains the
license required to own them....not a cheap or easy process.

Yeah, but for the most part without special licensing and a lot of money (I'm talking over 30,000) you aren't getting anything. What these people call assault rifles are things like AR-15s... They don't even know what the word means. I use the military definition of the term - it means specifically a firearm with fully automatic fire...

I'd say that just because of the extreme cost of this it's effectively dead, and even though you can buy the pre-ban guns they rarely go for sale and when they do it's a mortgage down payment to purchase them.

Assault rifles are so effective at doing their work that normal soldiers in our military aren't even issued them because of the tendency to just panic and empty them a magazine at a time. (And, hit nothing..) None of the currently issued firearms to our soldiers do anything more than a 2-3 round burst for that reason.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Speaking of scaremongering, in the literal sense of making a buck off fears instead of actually working to make communities safer.
Edit: or replace 'safer' with 'more free' for those with delusions that more guns make America more free.
fe055d771889c1cd2a1236e2c3fde12d.jpg

How about you patrolling my neighborhood tonight between-say- midnight and 5 am. I am sure that would make me feel safer. I'll take responsibility for my families safety when you're not around--thank you very much.
 
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