I could do better next time, if I had a reason to, certainly.That was prideful and idiotic. Surely you can do better next time.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
I could do better next time, if I had a reason to, certainly.That was prideful and idiotic. Surely you can do better next time.
I could do better next time, if I had a reason to, certainly.
Do you think I aim to convince you? Why would I?I've been reading your posts for a long time now. I sincerely doubt you ever will.
according to george harrision his guitar weeps. So do all guitars weeps or just george harrisions?According to the Bible Hell is the designated destination for the unbeliever:
Revelation 21:8 -
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[no need to equivocate over what such a person is condemned to]
Building on these scriptures and others like them Christians have developed a pretty firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever. In fact, they make it pretty clear that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell.
IOW, if you decide not to accept Christ's death on the cross as salvation you'll go to hell.A common misconception among Christians and non-Christians alike is that people go to hell because they haven’t heard of Jesus. This is not true. People go to hell because they are guilty of sin. The only way to escape hell is to be innocent of sin, and the only way to be innocent of sin is to accept Christ’s atonement.
source
IOW, if you believeth not in him you'll go to hell.How does God save corrupted, condemned, lost sinners? There is no other way than by and through His eternally begotten Son, Jesus Christ. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
source
IOW, if you don't see fit to have faith in Christ alone you're going to hellHell is what all of us deserve. But, thank God, there is also a heaven for those who have been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
source
IOW, unbelief will land you in hell quicker than you can spit. And why should this be? Because god feels such a person is responsible for his disbelief.. . .ask me whether the man who died in unbelief can be saved, and I reply there is no atonement for that man. . . .You may look throughout the entire Bible, and you will find that there is no atonement for the man or woman who died in unbelief; there is no mercy for them. Had they been guilty of every other sin, if they had only believed, they would have been pardoned; but this is the damning exception--they had no faith. Devils seize them! O fiends of the pit, drag them downward to their doom! They are faithless and unbelieving, and such are the persons for whom hell was built. It is their place, their prison, they are the chief prisoners, the chains are engraved with their names, and they will forever know that, “he that does not believe will be damned.”
source
But what about those, one may ask, who don't believe in Jesus because they've never heard of him and how to avoid hell?
Here's one answer.
And just what will such a loving and just god do, do you suppose? As I see it two options seem most likely.Question 4: What’s going to happen to those people in the world who’ve never heard about Jesus Christ?
So, what do we do about those who haven’t heard? We tell them. First we accept God’s good news and then we tell them and we leave the result in the hands of a fair, loving and just God.
source
1. He gives them a bye. They simply get into heaven for free, which implies a person would be far better off never having heard of Jesus in the first place. However, this doesn't strike me as quite cricket, so I doubt its likelihood.
2. He gives them a chance to decide for themselves. Perhaps even momentarily holding their feet to the fires of hell and then giving them a glimpse at all the frolicking souls in heaven, (Truthfully, If I was in their shoes the decision would be a no-brainer: Open up those Pearly gates St. Peter, I'm a believer and where do I sign?) but like the bye, this seems a bit unfair to all those who never had the benefit of an actual peek at the two alternatives. So, he probably doesn't do this, but simply asks them to decide.
Assuming this is the case, the determining factors would then be the evidence they have and how they judge it. The same factors we mortals still on earth have to work with.
The evidence.
As I count them there are basically two sources.
1. The BibleDespite the assertions of many Christians, the Bible is a flawed book. It has numerous contradictions. Science-wise it makes many false assertions. Has stories so fantastic that many Christians even consider them to be myths. Some of its moral principles are no longer acceptable. And it comes in so many conflicting versions that its veracity has to be questioned.
2. The word of others---principally preachers.
Now, many Christian may well dispute and even denounce these claims, but that's alright. My point here is that many people DO see them. People that actually regard the Bible as flawed, and because of this feel the book cannot be trusted to be telling the truth. So, as a matter of supporting evidence for the assertion that the non-believer will end up in hell, it falls short. For many people the Bible simply fails to compel any belief in itself.
As for the words of others: Even if the Bible is true, that the unbeliever will go to hell, if the words of others don't ring true and don't convince the listener, who's at fault? Is there any Christian preacher so adept that he will always convince the unbeliever? Of course not. The fact is preachers do fail in getting their message across, and whose fault is this? The poor guy in pew 113 seat 32 waiting to be given a reason to accept Jesus as his savior or the preacher 75 yards away? In one sense, yes it is the poor guy.
Judgment
Yes in the sense that he lacks mindset to buy what the preacher is selling. Perhaps his IQ is so low that that he can't make sense of what he's hearing. Or maybe he's quite bright and sees the preacher as more of a snake oil salesman than someone looking out for his interest. WHATEVER THE CASE, the person simply isn't of a mindset to agree and accept what he's been told. This is why differences of opinions arise and are retained despite baskets-full of counter arguments. We all meet each day with differing attitudes, prejudices, likes, and dislikes, etc., none of which we set out to actively develop. And all of which establish a frame of mind that sees X as reasonable or unreasonable.
So, can we be faulted for those factors that push us in one direction rather than the other? I say, no. We are what we are because of a myriad of unrequested factors that have gone into making us the way we are. I like blue rather than orange, and I haven't the slightest idea of why or how I would change to liking orange rather than blue even if I wanted to. I don't regard the evidence claiming that as an unbeliever I will go to hell to be at all persuasive, and I don't know how I could make my mind to be persuaded. That would have to come from outside. Something I have no control over. And lacking such persuasion from outside, currently
I don't accept Christ's death on the cross as salvation
I don't believeth in Him
I don't see fit to have faith in Christ alone
YET despite such an inability god has declared that I am culpable for my non-belief, and as such deserve to go to hell.
So, is it fair that I go to hell because I'm unable to draw a straight line?
I leave it up to you to decide.
.
Please don't take this as an exercise to convince myself why I shouldn't go to hell.
It's presented merely to show why I think the Christian notion of god is warped
Where then do you want to spend eternity? If the choices are between eternity in God's presence or eternally separated from Him what is so unfair? Do you think it more fair for God to force you to live in His presence forever whether you believe or want to be there or not?So, is it fair that I go to hell because I'm unable to draw a straight line?
I leave it up to you to decide.
.
But there is no choice. A person only believes as the mind dictates, which is determined by factors one has no control over. Think of god's strategy as assigning people to hell because they're left handed, or stand over 5'8", or are unable to multiply two 5 digit numbers in their head.Where then do you want to spend eternity? If the choices are between eternity in God's presence or eternally separated from Him what is so unfair?
What I feel would be fair is to recognize the reality of the human condition and respond accordingly: a person can only believe as their mind dictates. I'm over 5'8" tall and unless I chop off my head or feet I'm headed for hell.Do you think it more fair for God to force you to live in His presence forever whether you believe or want to be there or not?
If God is omnipresent, how does being in His absence work?Where then do you want to spend eternity? If the choices are between eternity in God's presence or eternally separated from Him what is so unfair?
The biblical revelation is that God created beings to live with Him in peace, love, and joy forever. Problem is that self-centered sin has broken this relationship, not only with God, but with others. The gospel message is simply that in Christ sin is removed and relationship is restored. Obviously some just don't want a relation ship with God or freedom from their own self-focus because the scriptures repeatedly stress that all who seek Him will find Him.There is nothing arbitrary about those who end up separated from God....only those who didn't want to be with Him. So you should have no complaints.But there is no choice. A person only believes as the mind dictates, which is determined by factors one has no control over. Think of god's strategy as assigning people to hell because they're left handed, or stand over 5'8", or are unable to multiply two 5 digit numbers in their head.
What I feel would be fair is to recognize the reality of the human condition and respond accordingly: a person can only believe as their mind dictates. I'm over 5'8" tall and unless I chop off my head or feet I'm headed for hell.
As the Christian story of god reads, his whole program of sin and salvation is morally bankrupt.
.
That is a good question. I am not sure, but think God has some way to accomplish it.If God is omnipresent, how does being in His absence work?
According to the Bible Hell is the designated destination for the unbeliever:
Revelation 21:8 -
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[no need to equivocate over what such a person is condemned to]
Building on these scriptures and others like them Christians have developed a pretty firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever. In fact, they make it pretty clear that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell.
IOW, if you decide not to accept Christ's death on the cross as salvation you'll go to hell.A common misconception among Christians and non-Christians alike is that people go to hell because they haven’t heard of Jesus. This is not true. People go to hell because they are guilty of sin. The only way to escape hell is to be innocent of sin, and the only way to be innocent of sin is to accept Christ’s atonement.
source
IOW, if you believeth not in him you'll go to hell.How does God save corrupted, condemned, lost sinners? There is no other way than by and through His eternally begotten Son, Jesus Christ. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
source
IOW, if you don't see fit to have faith in Christ alone you're going to hellHell is what all of us deserve. But, thank God, there is also a heaven for those who have been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
source
IOW, unbelief will land you in hell quicker than you can spit. And why should this be? Because god feels such a person is responsible for his disbelief.. . .ask me whether the man who died in unbelief can be saved, and I reply there is no atonement for that man. . . .You may look throughout the entire Bible, and you will find that there is no atonement for the man or woman who died in unbelief; there is no mercy for them. Had they been guilty of every other sin, if they had only believed, they would have been pardoned; but this is the damning exception--they had no faith. Devils seize them! O fiends of the pit, drag them downward to their doom! They are faithless and unbelieving, and such are the persons for whom hell was built. It is their place, their prison, they are the chief prisoners, the chains are engraved with their names, and they will forever know that, “he that does not believe will be damned.”
source
But what about those, one may ask, who don't believe in Jesus because they've never heard of him and how to avoid hell?
Here's one answer.
And just what will such a loving and just god do, do you suppose? As I see it two options seem most likely.Question 4: What’s going to happen to those people in the world who’ve never heard about Jesus Christ?
So, what do we do about those who haven’t heard? We tell them. First we accept God’s good news and then we tell them and we leave the result in the hands of a fair, loving and just God.
source
1. He gives them a bye. They simply get into heaven for free, which implies a person would be far better off never having heard of Jesus in the first place. However, this doesn't strike me as quite cricket, so I doubt its likelihood.
2. He gives them a chance to decide for themselves. Perhaps even momentarily holding their feet to the fires of hell and then giving them a glimpse at all the frolicking souls in heaven, (Truthfully, If I was in their shoes the decision would be a no-brainer: Open up those Pearly gates St. Peter, I'm a believer and where do I sign?) but like the bye, this seems a bit unfair to all those who never had the benefit of an actual peek at the two alternatives. So, he probably doesn't do this, but simply asks them to decide.
Assuming this is the case, the determining factors would then be the evidence they have and how they judge it. The same factors we mortals still on earth have to work with.
The evidence.
As I count them there are basically two sources.
1. The BibleDespite the assertions of many Christians, the Bible is a flawed book. It has numerous contradictions. Science-wise it makes many false assertions. Has stories so fantastic that many Christians even consider them to be myths. Some of its moral principles are no longer acceptable. And it comes in so many conflicting versions that its veracity has to be questioned.
2. The word of others---principally preachers.
Now, many Christian may well dispute and even denounce these claims, but that's alright. My point here is that many people DO see them. People that actually regard the Bible as flawed, and because of this feel the book cannot be trusted to be telling the truth. So, as a matter of supporting evidence for the assertion that the non-believer will end up in hell, it falls short. For many people the Bible simply fails to compel any belief in itself.
As for the words of others: Even if the Bible is true, that the unbeliever will go to hell, if the words of others don't ring true and don't convince the listener, who's at fault? Is there any Christian preacher so adept that he will always convince the unbeliever? Of course not. The fact is preachers do fail in getting their message across, and whose fault is this? The poor guy in pew 113 seat 32 waiting to be given a reason to accept Jesus as his savior or the preacher 75 yards away? In one sense, yes it is the poor guy.
Judgment
Yes in the sense that he lacks mindset to buy what the preacher is selling. Perhaps his IQ is so low that that he can't make sense of what he's hearing. Or maybe he's quite bright and sees the preacher as more of a snake oil salesman than someone looking out for his interest. WHATEVER THE CASE, the person simply isn't of a mindset to agree and accept what he's been told. This is why differences of opinions arise and are retained despite baskets-full of counter arguments. We all meet each day with differing attitudes, prejudices, likes, and dislikes, etc., none of which we set out to actively develop. And all of which establish a frame of mind that sees X as reasonable or unreasonable.
So, can we be faulted for those factors that push us in one direction rather than the other? I say, no. We are what we are because of a myriad of unrequested factors that have gone into making us the way we are. I like blue rather than orange, and I haven't the slightest idea of why or how I would change to liking orange rather than blue even if I wanted to. I don't regard the evidence claiming that as an unbeliever I will go to hell to be at all persuasive, and I don't know how I could make my mind to be persuaded. That would have to come from outside. Something I have no control over. And lacking such persuasion from outside, currently
I don't accept Christ's death on the cross as salvation
I don't believeth in Him
I don't see fit to have faith in Christ alone
YET despite such an inability god has declared that I am culpable for my non-belief, and as such deserve to go to hell.
So, is it fair that I go to hell because I'm unable to draw a straight line?
I leave it up to you to decide.
Please don't take this as an exercise to convince myself why I shouldn't go to hell.
It's presented merely to show why I think the Christian notion of god is warped.
.
Yup. Praise the lord.If any of that were true, god would be evil and worse than any human that has ever existed.