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Featured Culpability and Hell

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    According to the Bible Hell is the designated destination for the unbeliever:

    Revelation 21:8 -
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    John 3:17-18
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    [no need to equivocate over what such a person is condemned to]​

    Building on these scriptures and others like them Christians have developed a pretty firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever. In fact, they make it pretty clear that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell.

    A common misconception among Christians and non-Christians alike is that people go to hell because they haven’t heard of Jesus. This is not true. People go to hell because they are guilty of sin. The only way to escape hell is to be innocent of sin, and the only way to be innocent of sin is to accept Christ’s atonement.
    source
    IOW, if you decide not to accept Christ's death on the cross as salvation you'll go to hell.


    How does God save corrupted, condemned, lost sinners? There is no other way than by and through His eternally begotten Son, Jesus Christ. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
    source
    IOW, if you believeth not in him you'll go to hell.


    Hell is what all of us deserve. But, thank God, there is also a heaven for those who have been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
    source
    IOW, if you don't see fit to have faith in Christ alone you're going to hell


    . . .ask me whether the man who died in unbelief can be saved, and I reply there is no atonement for that man. . . .You may look throughout the entire Bible, and you will find that there is no atonement for the man or woman who died in unbelief; there is no mercy for them. Had they been guilty of every other sin, if they had only believed, they would have been pardoned; but this is the damning exception--they had no faith. Devils seize them! O fiends of the pit, drag them downward to their doom! They are faithless and unbelieving, and such are the persons for whom hell was built. It is their place, their prison, they are the chief prisoners, the chains are engraved with their names, and they will forever know that, “he that does not believe will be damned.”
    source
    IOW, unbelief will land you in hell quicker than you can spit. And why should this be? Because god feels such a person is responsible for his disbelief.


    But what about those, one may ask, who don't believe in Jesus because they've never heard of him and how to avoid hell?

    Here's one answer.

    Question 4: What’s going to happen to those people in the world who’ve never heard about Jesus Christ?
    So, what do we do about those who haven’t heard? We tell them. First we accept God’s good news and then we tell them and we leave the result in the hands of a fair, loving and just God.

    source
    And just what will such a loving and just god do, do you suppose? As I see it two options seem most likely.

    1. He gives them a bye. They simply get into heaven for free, which implies a person would be far better off never having heard of Jesus in the first place. However, this doesn't strike me as quite cricket, so I doubt its likelihood.

    2. He gives them a chance to decide for themselves. Perhaps even momentarily holding their feet to the fires of hell and then giving them a glimpse at all the frolicking souls in heaven, (Truthfully, If I was in their shoes the decision would be a no-brainer: Open up those Pearly gates St. Peter, I'm a believer and where do I sign?) but like the bye, this seems a bit unfair to all those who never had the benefit of an actual peek at the two alternatives. So, he probably doesn't do this, but simply asks them to decide.​

    Assuming this is the case, the determining factors would then be the evidence they have and how they judge it. The same factors we mortals still on earth have to work with.

    The evidence.


    As I count them there are basically two sources.

    1. The Bible
    2. The word of others---principally preachers.
    Despite the assertions of many Christians, the Bible is a flawed book. It has numerous contradictions. Science-wise it makes many false assertions. Has stories so fantastic that many Christians even consider them to be myths. Some of its moral principles are no longer acceptable. And it comes in so many conflicting versions that its veracity has to be questioned.

    Now, many Christian may well dispute and even denounce these claims, but that's alright. My point here is that many people DO see them. People that actually regard the Bible as flawed, and because of this feel the book cannot be trusted to be telling the truth. So, as a matter of supporting evidence for the assertion that the non-believer will end up in hell, it falls short. For many people the Bible simply fails to compel any belief in itself.

    As for the words of others: Even if the Bible is true, that the unbeliever will go to hell, if the words of others don't ring true and don't convince the listener, who's at fault? Is there any Christian preacher so adept that he will always convince the unbeliever? Of course not. The fact is preachers do fail in getting their message across, and whose fault is this? The poor guy in pew 113 seat 32 waiting to be given a reason to accept Jesus as his savior or the preacher 75 yards away? In one sense, yes it is the poor guy.

    Judgment

    Yes in the sense that he lacks mindset to buy what the preacher is selling. Perhaps his IQ is so low that that he can't make sense of what he's hearing. Or maybe he's quite bright and sees the preacher as more of a snake oil salesman than someone looking out for his interest. WHATEVER THE CASE, the person simply isn't of a mindset to agree and accept what he's been told. This is why differences of opinions arise and are retained despite baskets-full of counter arguments. We all meet each day with differing attitudes, prejudices, likes, and dislikes, etc., none of which we set out to actively develop. And all of which establish a frame of mind that sees X as reasonable or unreasonable.

    So, can we be faulted for those factors that push us in one direction rather than the other? I say, no. We are what we are because of a myriad of unrequested factors that have gone into making us the way we are. I like blue rather than orange, and I haven't the slightest idea of why or how I would change to liking orange rather than blue even if I wanted to. I don't regard the evidence claiming that as an unbeliever I will go to hell to be at all persuasive, and I don't know how I could make my mind to be persuaded. That would have to come from outside. Something I have no control over. And lacking such persuasion from outside, currently

    I don't accept Christ's death on the cross as salvation
    I don't believeth in Him
    I don't see fit to have faith in Christ alone​

    YET despite such an inability god has declared that I am culpable for my non-belief, and as such deserve to go to hell.

    So, is it fair that I go to hell because I'm unable to draw a straight line?

    I leave it up to you to decide.



    Please don't take this as an exercise to convince myself why I shouldn't go to hell.
    It's presented merely to show why I think the Christian notion of god is warped.​

    .
     
    #1 Skwim, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  2. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Believe. This is terrible archaic grammar lol. Not sure if it was intended to be bad grammar. Sorry it just irked me. Lol.
     
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  3. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Skwim, for a person who doesn't believe in Christianity you sure seem to study it a lot.

    And whether or not you go to hell isn't for us to decide.
     
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  4. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I am seriously curious as to why you work so hard to justify your non belief in Christianity. What motivates you to put in the effort?
     
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  5. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Most people who experience this usually blame God for one or more very painful experiences in their life. They feel like they have to justify their hatred of God.
     
  6. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Well if there can be self-hating Jews I guess there can be self-hating Christians, er right?
     
  7. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are more than you think. I don't know if Skwim falls in that category, though.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Don't the dead go to a 'biblical hell ', after all the day righteous Jesus died dead Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10. If biblical hell was a permanent place Jesus would still be in hell.

    I suppose since we are all sinners and all sinners die, then we go to 'biblical hell' at death.
    The exception are those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; Psalms 92:7 because they will Not have a resurrection out of hell. The rest of the dead will be delivered up (resurrected) out of biblical hell before biblical hell is cast empty into that symbolic ' second death ' for emptied-out hell according to Revelation 20:13-14.
    Any thoughts about Revelation 1:18.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    According to ' what Bible ' because I find faithful Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died until his God resurrected the dead Jesus out of biblical hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27; 3:15; Psalms 16:10.

    Please notice the definition of the lake of fire as defined at Revelation 20:13-14.
    It it defined as ' second death '.
    Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B
    Satan ends up in ' second death ' according to Revelation 21:8
    So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
    ALL the wicked ( sinner Satan is wicked ) will be annihilated ( destroyed forever ) according to Psalms 92:7.
    So, it is Not the Christian notion of God that is warped but false clergy teachings about Scripture that is warped.
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.;)

    Boy, it seems a lot of you "usis" have already decided.

    .
     
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  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    No attempt at justification whatsoever. As I said at the bottom of my post.

    "Please don't take this as an exercise to convince myself why I shouldn't go to hell.
    It's presented merely to show why I think the Christian notion of god is warped."
    And as I said in another thread, The reason I'm here:

    It's purely benevolent. I'm here to help.

    [​IMG]

    .
     
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  12. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    From my biblical studies, theists invented the notion of hell for the purpose of a place where "sinners" would go, especially in relation to changing times when theists deemed human court justice as insufficient. The justice system is not perfect, it created the fictional Dexter after all and it created the fictional hell.
     
  13. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    " to show why I think X" = justification for X
    Your motivation is altruistic sharing of your reasoning? Cool. Kind of feel you are repeatedly flaying a very very dead horse... gnawing at fossilized bones etc.
     
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  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Not exactly sure what you're getting at, but there are a number of Christians who equate hell with the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

    One likely reason:
    Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

    The concept of hell is a major foundation belief in Christian churches. Many churches teach that the lake of fire, or the lake of fire and brimstone, is the same as Hell, a place where people will be tormented forever, if they do not get into heaven.
    source

    The flames and fiery streams, which were rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah formerly, and which issued forth from the earth in the eruptions of Mount Aetna lately, are but shadows of the future flames, and like painted fire in comparison, with the streams of fire and brimstone, which in hell shall burn the wicked eternally.
    I shall show,
    First, That there is such a place as hell, where the wicked shall be tormented.
    Secondly, That it is a place of fire and brimstone.

    source

    THere is nothing that Hell is described by in the whole Book of the Scripture so much as by Fire, and sometimes by Fire mingled with Brim∣stone.

    source

    Hell is a Place Where they will be Tormented with Brimstone and Fire
    "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" (Revelation 14:10)

    source
     
  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    If Christianity didn't give people a reason to take it up no one would give it a second look, but create a need and then a means of meeting that need, and you've got the makings of a best seller.

    .
     
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  16. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Not "God". That would make no sense.

    Now, "blind belief in God", that is something.
     
  17. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Not theists as a whole. Proselitist monotheists, which are the specific if numerous group that has an use for that odd concept.
     
  18. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    Best seller is a subjective concept.
     
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Some of us keep having those zombies thrown over us without asking to. Self-defense is fair game.
     
  20. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    When I refer to theists, I'm usually referring to the monotheistic ones. I don't think I should have to specifically label it every time.
     
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