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Orthogenesis

Orthogenesis also known as orthogenetic evolution is an obsolete biological hypothesis that organisms have an innate tendency to evolve in a unilinear fashion due to some internal mechanism or "driving force".-wikipedia
Makes sense to me. As opposed to the theory that we are a random accident.

You are right that orthogenesis might make more sense than a theory that life is a "random accident." However, such a theory has nothing to do with the theory of natural selection.

The only thing random in natural selection is mutation, which through changes in the chromosome delivers new possibilities that may offer slight advantage (or disadvantage) to the offspring of an organism experiencing the mutations. Evolution itself occurs in a very determined process of selection in which descendants inheriting advantageous changes are able to produce larger numbers of successful offspring than those without it, leading to a gradual shift over generations in the proportion of the population exhibiting the change.

Mutations furthermore aren't entirely random, as they happen at a statistically regular rate, and changes occur in existing genetic material which determine to a certain extent the range of possibilities of what is to be changed within a particular any organism. For example in modern humans small changes in structures of the brain allowing better adjustment to urban life might happen. But it is unlikely that tree branches will sprout from a person's back.

Major changes such as origin of photosynthesis in plants and metabolism in animals may also occur through a process known as symbiogenesis, in which fast-reproducing bacteria which acquire new metabolic or other processes through natural selection and transfer of genetic information with other bacteria may be enter into symbiotic relationships with other cells to eventually become incorporated into them as organelles -- chlorophyll for photosynthesis in plants and mitochondria for metabolism in plants. Another example was the ability to construct hard structures from calcium. The different kingdoms and at least some of the major phyla are thought to have originated through this process.

I'd suggest reading the book "The Liberation of Life from the Cell to the Community," by the Christian theologian John B. Cobb and biologist Charles Birch. Though dated, the early chapter gives a pretty good explanation of the theory of natural selection by a religious philosopher with deeply held Christian beliefs. More recently are very readable books by the geneticist Lynn Margulis which provide an introduction to symbiogenesis.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Actually, intelligent design is the only empirically proven method by which such information systems like DNA can be originated, no way around this.

Disagree, and needs more explanation, and references. First nothing is empirically 'proven.'

For intelligent design to be empirically falsified you would have to come up with the hypothesis that may be falsified that information systems like DNA cannot originate by natural processes without an outside intelligent source designing these information systems.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Disagree, and needs more explanation, and references. First nothing is empirically 'proven.'

For intelligent design to be empirically falsified you would have to come up with the hypothesis that may be falsified that information systems like DNA cannot originate by natural processes without an outside intelligent source designing these information systems.

that works yes
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
that works yes

Needs more explanation. I do not believe it works.

There is a major issue with the falsification of 'Intelligent Design' that cannot be overcome. You would have to falsify the negative that information systems like DNA cannot come about by natural processes.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
Yes, evolution driven by entirely random/ unguided mechanisms made sense, within the Victorian age understanding of reality when Darwinism was conceived.
But ... that was never the concept that Darwin advanced ... sorry, you've got it wrong. Consider that "selection" is quite the opposite of "random" or "unguided."
But the more we understand, the more non-random mechanisms are getting more attention again e.g. epigenetics, 'natural' engineering. Where an individual's genes can be expressed/ passed on depending on their own individual circumstances
You can drop the strawman anytime now. No ones buying it.
in other words, Giraffes necks got longer because they literally wanted longer necks... this would be a far more plausible process that waiting around for a longer neck to randomly appear by accidental mutation!
No, any advantage meant that those who benefited from it out reproduced those lacking it. Rather common sense.
The problem remains though, the oldest known Giraffe ancestors necks were just as long as today, we don't see the gradual progression happening by any mechanism- and this pretty much goes for the rest of the fossil record
We've been through this one, you are (once again) wrong. Check your sources.
Actually, intelligent design is the only empirically proven method by which such information systems like DNA can be originated, no way around this.
Intelligent Design has never been empirically proven. There is no support (outside of the extreme fringe) for Dembski and friends hypothesis of Complex Specified Information. In fact, it and all of it's underpinnings have been falsified at every turn, at least on a theoretical basis. There appears to be nothing that prevents information systems like DNA from developing, not even your faith that it can't be.

The relationship between biology and information theory given above and other approaches in the literature suggest that the words "biological information", "developmental information" or "genetic information" are ambiguous without clarification. Even then, there will be ambiguity:

In biology the term information is used with two very different meanings. The first is in reference to the fact that the sequence of bases in DNA codes for the sequence of amino acids in proteins. In this restricted sense, DNA contains information, namely about the primary structure of proteins. The second use of the term information is an extrapolation: it signifies the belief or expectation that the genome somehow also codes for the higher or more complex properties of living things. It is clear that the second type of information, if it exists, must be very different from the simple one-to-one cryptography of the genetic code. This extrapolation is based, loosely, on information theory. But to apply information theory in a proper and useful way it is necessary to identify the manner in which information is to be measured (the units in which it is to be expressed in both sender and receiver, and the total amount of information in the system and in a message), and it is necessary to identify the sender, the receiver and the information channel (or means by which information is transmitted). As it is, there exists no generally accepted method for measuring the amount of information in a biological system, nor even agreement of what the units of information are (atoms, molecules, cells?) and how to encode information about their number, their diversity, and their arrangement in space and time.[Nijhout, H. F. Bioessays, September 1990, vol. 12, no. 9; p.443]

Creationists, on the other hand, in a vain attempt to coat their myths with a veneer of science, co-opted this idea of information theory to make a Professor Irwin Corey style, plausible-sounding but nonsensical attack on evolution. The claim is that the genetic code is a "language" that transmits information and with the usual willful misunderstandings of the second law of thermodynamics (that's energy, not information) they preach that information can never be increased.

This is a change from the old tactic that there can be "no beneficial mutations." Because information theory is more difficult for the layman to understand, it is easy to hide behind information theory without really understanding it. It is also intimately related to the "evolution couldn't have possibly have made eyes, wings, or flagella" arguments as well.

So, the changes they cannot outright deny are defined as "losing information", and changes they disagree with are defined as "gaining information", which by their definition is impossible. At no point do the creationists define what information actually is and they (even in the allegedly scientific case of complex specified information) will purposefully avoid defining the concept in any useful way. The creationists tend to change their meaning on an ad hoc basis depending on the argument, relying on colloquial, imprecise definitions of information rather than quantifiable ones -- or worse, switching interchangeably between different definitions depending on the context of the discussion or argument.

The deliberate conflation of the totally unrelated concepts of thermodynamic and informational entropy is, while an obvious flaw in the argument, a flaw that the creationists' intended audience is less likely to pick up on, so it remains a popular argument.
(thanks, RATIONALWIKI)
 
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Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Needs more explanation. I do not believe it works.

There is a major issue with the falsification of 'Intelligent Design' that cannot be overcome. You would have to falsify the negative that information systems like DNA cannot come about by natural processes.

so simply show that they can...
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
But ... that was never the concept that Darwin advanced ... sorry, you've got it wrong. Consider that "selection" is quite the opposite of "random" or "unguided."

selection of.... ?

Intelligent Design has never been empirically proven. There is no support (outside of the extreme fringe) for Dembski and friends hypothesis of Complex Specified Information. In fact, it and all of it's underpinnings have been falsified at every turn, at least on a theoretical basis. There appears to be nothing that prevents information systems like DNA from developing, not even your faith that it can't be.


You don't believe intelligent design was involved in this forum structure, the web authoring software behind it, and operating systems behind that?

you think random chance is a better explanation?


You are aware of something that prevents intelligent design? I don't have to prevent natural mechanisms, they can coexist, nature is the executor of God's laws (Galileo)

That's the ultimate difference, ID is more inclusive, it has no need to banish known mechanisms without good cause to become the most likely explanation, it is either way.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You don't believe intelligent design was involved in this forum structure, the web authoring software behind it, and operating systems behind that?

The problem is with information systems that are a product of natural processes like DNA, and not man made systems.

you think random chance is a better explanation?

Random chance has no explanation for natural processes, and the natural events that result from natural processes.

You are aware of something that prevents intelligent design? I don't have to prevent natural mechanisms, they can coexist, nature is the executor of God's laws (Galileo)

It is not an issue of anything nor anyone preventing Intelligent Design, and it is possibly true, but it is not a falsifiable hypothesis by empirical methods.

That's the ultimate difference, ID is more inclusive, it has no need to banish known mechanisms without good cause to become the most likely explanation, it is either way.

To become the most likely explanation it must be falsified by empirical scientific methods, which at present has not happened,
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
selection of.... ?
Anything, select blue objects, select things that taste good, select the car with a full tank of gas, select the phenotype that is the most fit. None of those are random.
You don't believe intelligent design was involved in this forum structure, the web authoring software behind it, and operating systems behind that?
I do. Did anyone suggest that it was not?
you think random chance is a better explanation?
I do not. Did anyone suggest that it was?
You are aware of something that prevents intelligent design? I don't have to prevent natural mechanisms, they can coexist, nature is the executor of God's laws (Galileo)
Would not the absence of a higher being be a major preventative?
That's the ultimate difference, ID is more inclusive, it has no need to banish known mechanisms without good cause to become the most likely explanation, it is either way.
Sure there is ... ID is completely unnecessary, unevidenced, and demonstrably naught but an invented ploy to sneak creationism back into the science classroom.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
This is just more straw-man clap trap. No one suggests that we are a random accident in fact there is no possible way to consider that any form of selection is a random event. If you want to hypothesis an internal mechanism or "driving force" you need to actually describe it.

What is your take on the origin of life and the origin of the Universe? Random or designed?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What is your take on the origin of life and the origin of the Universe? Random or designed?

Definitely not random, and this is a rather outdated idiotic notion that is meaningless in today's science. From the scientific perspective there is no empirical falsifiable evidence to justify a source by design.

As a Theist I believe our physical existence is Created by natural processes we objectively observe by the evidence through science, and God is not an engineer he needs not to design anything
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Definitely not random, and this is a rather outdated idiotic notion that is meaningless in today's science. From the scientific perspective there is no empirical falsifiable evidence to justify a source by design.

As a Theist I believe our physical existence is Created by natural processes we objectively observe by the evidence through science, and God is not an engineer he needs not to design anything

Thank you for your answer, I really mean that, but I am very interested to see how Sapiens answers the questions I asked.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
we'll can we falsify random occurrence based on the evidence? so why is it better to infer random chance?

how is that more scientific?

It's just that all this inference is merely preference.

intelligent design is just as valid, and probably more so.

all this naturalism is doctrines where many many people say out the same verbatim.

if intelligent design turns out to be true you naturalists would never ever believe it anyway.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, evolution driven by entirely random/ unguided mechanisms made sense, within the Victorian age understanding of reality when Darwinism was conceived.
Magic never 'made sense', it's just a facile way of dismissing a troubling question.
in other words, Giraffes necks got longer because they literally wanted longer necks... this would be a far more plausible process that waiting around for a longer neck to randomly appear by accidental mutation!
This sounds more like Lamarckism than epigenetics. Epigenetic switching isn't triggered by wishes.
The problem remains though, the oldest known Giraffe ancestors necks were just as long as today, we don't see the gradual progression happening by any mechanism- and this pretty much goes for the rest of the fossil record
How is a gap in the fossil record evidence of anything? Fossils aren't created easily, and, if created, aren't easily found. There will probably always be gaps in the fossil record.
The fact of evolution remains. The mechanisms are understood and the steps visible in other fossil lineages. Why would we conclude giraffes were any different?
Actually, intelligent design is the only empirically proven method by which such information systems like DNA can be originated, no way around this.
Empirically proven? ID has no supporting evidence whatsoever, it's a special pleading; an argument from elimination -- if natural Selection can be deflated, magic poofing must needs be the only possible alternative.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sapiens said:

But ... that was never the concept that Darwin advanced ... sorry, you've got it wrong. Consider that "selection" is quite the opposite of "random" or "unguided."

selection of.... ?
Natural Selection, of course. The tendency of those born with useful features to thrive and have more children, increasing the trait in the population.
you think random chance is a better explanation?
No-one thinks random chance is a better explanation. Stop bringing up this straw man. Natural selection is not random chance!
That's the ultimate difference, ID is more inclusive, it has no need to banish known mechanisms without good cause to become the most likely explanation, it is either way.
ID is not an explanation, it's an assertion of agency, and there's not a shred of evidence supporting it. It's a false dilemma.[/QUOTE]
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
What is your take on the origin of life and the origin of the Universe? Random or designed?
That is a false dilemma. Clearly there is an order to it, I suspect, on the basis of all that we have discovered to date, that we will, in time, find it to be a natural but non-deterministic order with a stochastic term.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
That is a false dilemma. Clearly there is an order to it, I suspect, on the basis of all that we have discovered to date, that we will, in time, find it to be a natural but non-deterministic order with a stochastic term.

Good answer but of course I do not agree with it. Basically, you're telling me that you don't know. It is okay to admit that you don't know.

I gave you a medal for that answer.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Good answer but of course I do not agree with it. Basically, you're telling me that you don't know. It is okay to admit that you don't know.

I gave you a medal for that answer.
You KNOW nothing of the FACTS, neither do I. You wander in the dark mistaken in your belief that you know the terrain. I've seen similar terrains in other places and have tested what I learned in those explorations against this one, and invoked Occam and relied on uniformitarianism... and it appears that the fit is pretty good. There is a rather high probability that causes are natural, there is no evidence (a low probability) that they are not. That's not the same thing as "I don't know" except when you get pushed to the wall of solipsism where everything outside one's own mind is unsure.
 
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Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I imagine that when people first start playing poker, they just see everything as random.
But the best poker players actually have skill at the game - it isn't just chance that they tend to win more.

I'm not saying things did or did not start out "randomly" but at this point in our "evolution" things have really moved well past the "million monkeys on typewriters" phase. We are part of a complex system, the boundaries of which we do not fully understand.

At this point in our "evolution" a "random" change in genetics is more likely to do more harm than good - as demonstrated when conditions occurs that promote random mutation (such as exposure to nuclear radiation). It is far more likely that there is a "considered" approach to our continued evolution and genetic rules governing the kinds of changes that actually take place - for example, dominant and recessive genes, for example, not all animals appear to be evolving into the same creature (one species more fit to survive than any other). Rather, animals appear to have diversified into numerous types and actually have functions that complement each other's activities.

Organisms have "evolved" past the rudimentary concept of "survival of the fittest" and into a more advanced notion of mutually beneficial existence.

Humans do not exist on air alone. They depend on the complex relationships that they have with all other organisms.
You might think that it is would be better for a fish to evolve into a human because humans are "more fit to survive" than fish, but it just doesn't work that way. The human could not exist without the fish (and if not the fish, then w/e your preferred organic food is). At some point, organisms stopped evolving solely for their own benefit.

Maybe it all started out of some random DNA soup, maybe not, but does that really matter anymore? The system is up and running and the rules (whether they were random at one point or not) aren't just random anymore.
 
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