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Featured Orthogenesis

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by janesix, May 18, 2017.

  1. janesix

    janesix Member

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    Orthogenesis also known as orthogenetic evolution is an obsolete biological hypothesis that organisms have an innate tendency to evolve in a unilinear fashion due to some internal mechanism or "driving force".-wikipedia
    Makes sense to me. As opposed to the theory that we are a random accident.
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    So the theory "we are a random accident" is wrong. Is it? Please
    Please elaborate.
    Regards
     
  3. janesix

    janesix Member

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    I think I have seen you on Hubpages forum?

    Anyway, yes I believe that "we are accidents" is completely wrong. I see order and purpose in the universe, not random accidents. I started seeing this when I started delving further into evolution. Everything has it's place. Every adaptation has a purpose.
     
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  4. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita and Spiritualist
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    It seems to go along with my intelligent design beliefs. I do not think this complexity occurred just by happenstance. I am not a biologist, but there are modern spiritual sources I respect that I believe are beyond current science who are saying what I am saying.
     
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  5. janesix

    janesix Member

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    I agree. This universe, and life in it, are definitely designed.
     
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  6. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Of course "every adaptation has a purpose" - that purpose being that the adapted being is that much more fit for survival. This most certainly does NOT mean that there had to have been a "guiding hand", or designing intelligence behind said adaptations. The ones that worked, stuck through the following generations. The ones that didn't or ended up a detriment to survival for beings with those differences didn't propagate.

    We (humans) did the guiding and "intelligent designing" of modern canine species. Was that us "playing God?" Or was that us merely taking advantage of a system that IS ALREADY IN PLACE to ensure that organisms can develop stable members to suit changing needs, climates, food-sources, etc.?
     
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  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Then how do you explain miscarriages? serious birth defects? mutations?
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Active Member
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    The current science of evolution does not consider evolution nor the events of evolution accidental nor random by definition.

    accident - an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

    The science of evolution and the events of evolution are caused and determined by Natural Laws, and the variation in the outcome of the events has fractal qualities, not random, described in chaos theory.
     
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  9. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    This is just more straw-man clap trap. No one suggests that we are a random accident in fact there is no possible way to consider that any form of selection is a random event. If you want to hypothesis an internal mechanism or "driving force" you need to actually describe it.
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Active Member
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    Neither Orthogenesis nor Creation by design are not falsifiable by scientific methods.

    Concepts of design are not supported by the objective verifiable evidence. The concept of "we are accidents" is a foolish notion not believe by science.
     
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  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Quite right. It's obsolete and never rose to the level of theory. It's simple speculation, based on a lovely, comforting notion of design and progress, but, in the end, there's simply no evidence supporting it.

    What is this theory that we're a random accident? I know of no such theory.
    No, you don't think this complexity occurred by happenstance, you feel it. But don't let this trouble you, No biologist believes it occurred by happenstance, either.
    What does "beyond science" mean?
    There were once respected spiritual authorities -- beyond science -- who insisted the Sun revolved around the Earth.
    On what do you base this conclusion?
     
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  12. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita and Spiritualist
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    Modern psychic sources/channels that I believe see beyond the physical plane only reach of science.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Active Member
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    This amounts to anecdotal subjective claim that can be only be accepted by those that believe based on faith.
     
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  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Ah, I see. But this would be convincing only to one who experienced it. Without empirical supporting evidence it would be foolish for anyone else to believe such non-intuitive mysticism.

    Visit a mental hospital and you'll hear no end of strange religious ideas. They can't all be right.
     
  15. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita and Spiritualist
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    Well, my study of the paranormal has led me to believe beyond reasonable doubt that scientism is a very limiting way of understanding reality. The universe is to me clearly something more complex than current scientific understanding. And I have come to believe there are entities beyond the physical that wish to aid our understanding. Yes, that is my subjective belief.
     
  16. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita and Spiritualist
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    Well, my study of the paranormal has led me to reject scientism. Yes, it is my subjective opinion that there are entities that wish to expand our understanding of reality.
     
  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    All well and good. I, too, have had mystical experiences, but without hard evidence, I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe my insights.
    That would be foolishness.
     
  18. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita and Spiritualist
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    I have not had mystical experiences myself. After objective consideration I believe much can be learned through communication with non-physical entities (channeling) and advanced souls. It is more than just people's mystical experiences but understandable messages. And I also believe there are also advanced souls that take birth to aid us in our understanding. When I put all these and other things together I form my worldview.

    Hard physical proof of the beyond the physical may be an oxymoron, but (through objective consideration of the paranormal evidence) we can objectively believe things do occur that have no reasonable natural physical-only explanation. And believe there are loving beings that wish to aid us by telling us about this 'more' than the physical.
     
  19. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    Yes, evolution driven by entirely random/ unguided mechanisms made sense, within the Victorian age understanding of reality when Darwinism was conceived.

    But the more we understand, the more non-random mechanisms are getting more attention again e.g. epigenetics, 'natural' engineering. Where an individual's genes can be expressed/ passed on depending on their own individual circumstances

    in other words, Giraffes necks got longer because they literally wanted longer necks... this would be a far more plausible process that waiting around for a longer neck to randomly appear by accidental mutation!

    The problem remains though, the oldest known Giraffe ancestors necks were just as long as today, we don't see the gradual progression happening by any mechanism- and this pretty much goes for the rest of the fossil record
     
    #19 Guy Threepwood, May 19, 2017 at 11:36 AM
    Last edited: May 19, 2017 at 11:43 AM
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  20. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    Actually, intelligent design is the only empirically proven method by which such information systems like DNA can be originated, no way around this.

    Whether or not spontaneous mechanisms can do likewise.... it's a very interesting question, but we simply do not know. I don't think it's a 'foolish' idea- that only betrays an emotional basis for belief either way.

    I do not rule it out, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it! extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all
     
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