Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

[sojourner]

sincerly said: ↑
The principles remain the same.
sojourner, what part is apropos to Paul's usage is as Jesus did in reading the first portion of Isa.61:1-2, HIS beginning to Preach/teach the people.----"acceptable year of the lord".Luke 4:18-19
There is no changing of the messages from one thing to something different---as you are advocating,
Click to expand...


Yes, and Jesus left out all the stuff that wasn't apropos to his message, just as Paul left out all the garbage about God smiting enemies. Paul was pointing to the universality of Jesus.

Let's look at Isa.61:1-3 and the message Jesus said was being fulfilled."The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified."

And Luke 4:18-21, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised",
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Luke 7:22-23, "Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

That which Jesus spoke was fulfilled in their ears that day. However. ""and the day of vengeance of our God;"" will not occur until the day of judgment takes place(still future). Or as the demons acknowledged. Matt.8:29,"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"


I don't know where you're getting your information from, but Isaiah was partially written during the exile, and partially after the exile. There is ample evidence to show this, and the dates are not in dispute.

Yet, Paul writes prior to the written accounts of Jesus' teachings. 1 Thess. was written 48-50 C.E. Mark (the earliest gospel) wasn't written until about 70 C.E.

No, but you have.

What was written by human beings was a collection of the (largely) oral tradition of the Hebrews.

The impetus is to preserve the oral tradition.

Where in the story does it tell us that? This is a fine example of how you read stuff into the text that Is. Not. There. It says that Jacob won't let "the man" go until he gets a blessing, but it doesn't say that's why the battle happened in the first place. In fact, we're not told why the battle took place.

No it doesn't.

Bunk.

You have no idea what "cosmology" means, do you.

God is a lover of persons, and respect is part and parcel of love.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to accomplish with this post, because your use (or lack thereof) of the quote feature renders your thesis incomprehensible.

 

[sincerly]

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to accomplish with this post, because your use (or lack thereof) of the quote feature renders your thesis incomprehensible.

Just suffice it with Isaiah's ""and the day of vengeance of our God;"" along with the other Prophets who have written there is a day of reckoning in the future as Jesus said.
Ex.34:7, "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

[sojourner]

Just suffice it with Isaiah's ""and the day of vengeance of our God;"" along with the other Prophets who have written there is a day of reckoning in the future as Jesus said.
Ex.34:7, "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

If you want to live your life eat up with entitlement and disdain for your fellow human beings, that's your business. But I don't put much stock in prophecies embittered by exile and enslavement as a paradigm for God's kindom.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Just suffice it with Isaiah's ""and the day of vengeance of our God;"" along with the other Prophets who have written there is a day of reckoning in the future as Jesus said.
Ex.34:7, "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Click to expand...

If you want to live your life eat up with entitlement and disdain for your fellow human beings, that's your business. But I don't put much stock in prophecies embittered by exile and enslavement as a paradigm for God's kindom.

sojourner, there is no human Being who is "entitled" to the Kingdom of heaven.(All have sinned). The group of sinners that make up your "kindom of heaven" have no "entitlement" to anything. They "disdain" the government of GOD--which is LOVE. GOD said such would end up ashes. No life.
It is GOD'S Grace given by HIS Mercy and Love BECAUSE one chose in LOVE to the Father and the Jesus Christ HIS SON to Repent and Submit to the Will of the Father that one is allowed into the KINGDOM of GOD.

The paradigm of GOD'S righteous Kingdom is seen in the absence of evil/disobedience/arrogance/hate/discontent.
GOD'S Character puts no stock in any who choose rebellion against HIM---Therefore, at the judgment, they will cease to exist/be living.

 

[bird]

Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy, and their founder/prophet/teacher was given special insight or revelation to restore it, could this be true?
Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, so for me if what these great latter day prophets surmised to be true, Jesus must have been wrong. Charles Taze Russel, Ellen G White, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Bahá'u'lláh, all taught in one way or another that what Jesus started became corrupted and that the bible had also become corrupted or very badly translated or parts lost from it, so they came up with their correct words of God, koran,nwt,book of mormon, pearl of great price,the great controversy and Bahá'u'lláhs writings etc.

My position is there has always been a faithfull true remnant of Christians even through the so called dark ages who adhered to simple biblical faith. I know that many departed from the faith and that heresy and apostasy have been wide spread throughout christendom at times but my question is did it completely vanish?

My position is like yours, that there is always a remnant of true believers at any time. Romans 11:3-5 tells us this: "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." The thing about all this idea of a continuing church and the gates of hell not prevailing against it, however, is that the word church should not be taken to mean man's denominations. Church, in it's real form, simply refers to those persons who are truly saved, not to the many denominations that frequently have man-induced errors. God builds his true believers on the rock of Christ and the "building" does not fall.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy, and their founder/prophet/teacher was given special insight or revelation to restore it, could this be true?

Sorry but you didn't have an entry for my choice.

The church, just as Paul predicted, almost immediately fell away from any shadow of its original self as members began to fight over power positions, and to do so they made arguments about doctrines that divided the church into tiny little parcels. They still do it today. "********" is an appropriate term, because they were sons of Cain. To this day churches are run by prophets who feed only themselves. All of Paul's warnings about them are right. The Church has yet to recover.

You don't even provide the option for what really happened in your list, because the church leaders have so much influence that you can't even contemplate what actually happened. That's how far the church is from its beginning, how naked and how poor the current church is, and don't get me started on Islam, which to me is just another branch of all these bickering churches. If Jesus came near today's churches he would be corrupted, even though lepers couldn't corrupt him. You are like vipers, vicious and easily angered, easily prodded, uncaring but thinking of yourselves as caring, unfeeling, concerned with afterlife but not for life, backward, willingly ignorant of scripture. The church today is so pathetically unlike what was hoped for that it will be a very long time indeed before all is accomplished. It will not happen in 1000 lifetimes, yet millions of people act like everything is OK and they just need for Jesus to return to fix everything for them as soon as possible.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry but you didn't have an entry for my choice.

The church, just as Paul predicted, almost immediately fell away from any shadow of its original self as members began to fight over power positions, and to do so they made arguments about doctrines that divided the church into tiny little parcels. They still do it today. "********" is an appropriate term, because they were sons of Cain. To this day churches are run by prophets who feed only themselves. All of Paul's warnings about them are right. The Church has yet to recover.

You don't even provide the option for what really happened in your list, because the church leaders have so much influence that you can't even contemplate what actually happened. That's how far the church is from its beginning, how naked and how poor the current church is, and don't get me started on Islam, which to me is just another branch of all these bickering churches. If Jesus came near today's churches he would be corrupted, even though lepers couldn't corrupt him. You are like vipers, vicious and easily angered, easily prodded, uncaring but thinking of yourselves as caring, unfeeling, concerned with afterlife but not for life, backward, willingly ignorant of scripture. The church today is so pathetically unlike what was hoped for that it will be a very long time indeed before all is accomplished. It will not happen in 1000 lifetimes, yet millions of people act like everything is OK and they just need for Jesus to return to fix everything for them as soon as possible.

"No there has always been a Godly remnant"? That's a funny question. Everyone thinks they're right. So how did that "remnant" really know they were right, since everyone of them probably uses the Bible to prove they've got it together? Even if they were right, how long before they got corrupted? If only a few had it right, then all the rest of the Christians that had it wrong, what happened to them? Did God send them or will send them to hell and say "I never knew you"?

 

[Brickjectivity]

"No there has always been a Godly remnant"? That's a funny question. Everyone thinks they're right. So how did that "remnant" really know they were right, since everyone of them probably uses the Bible to prove they've got it together? Even if they were right, how long before they got corrupted? If only a few had it right, then all the rest of the Christians that had it wrong, what happened to them? Did God send them or will send them to hell and say "I never knew you"?

I think I understand what you are saying. For a minute there I thought you were quoting someone. I think that you have a really good point there.

 

[ZooGirl02]

If the true Church had ever vanished or fallen away then Jesus would have been wrong when He said this:

Matthew 16:13-19 RSV-CE (13) Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" (14) And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." (15) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" (16) Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (17) And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. (18) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As you can see, in verse 18 Jesus says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Therefore, it would be impossible for the true Church to ever vanish or fall away because if such a thing had happened then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church.

That said, the Catholic Church is the one true Church and will exist until the end of time. There has never been a "great apostasy" as some religions, such as Mormons, teach. Here are a couple of articles which do a good job of dealing with the "great apostasy" theory:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/in-search-of-the-great-apostasy

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/latter-day-saints-and-the-great-apostasy

http://www.catholic.com/blog/rod-bennett/athanasius-and-the-myth-of-the-great-apostasy

 

[Katzpur]

As you can see, in verse 18 Jesus says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Therefore, it would be impossible for the true Church to ever vanish or fall away because if such a thing had happened then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church.

Well that all depends on what you believe "the gates of hell" to be referring to. I'd be willing to bet you don't have a clue as to what that short little phrase would have meant to Christ's Apostles. So what exactly do you think "the gates of hell" meant to them? Satanic powers perhaps? Evil? Uh... nope.

 

[CG Didymus]

If the true Church had ever vanished or fallen away then Jesus would have been wrong when He said this:

Matthew 16:13-19 RSV-CE (13) Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" (14) And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." (15) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" (16) Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (17) And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. (18) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As you can see, in verse 18 Jesus says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Therefore, it would be impossible for the true Church to ever vanish or fall away because if such a thing had happened then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church.

That said, the Catholic Church is the one true Church and will exist until the end of time. There has never been a "great apostasy" as some religions, such as Mormons, teach. Here are a couple of articles which do a good job of dealing with the "great apostasy" theory:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/in-search-of-the-great-apostasy

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/latter-day-saints-and-the-great-apostasy

http://www.catholic.com/blog/rod-bennett/athanasius-and-the-myth-of-the-great-apostasy

I've met nice, spiritual people in every religion. So, in a way, does every religion have a "remnant"... those that try to do what their religion teaches? As far as Catholics go, they are not the same Church I grew up with. You guys have made some changes. But, if the criteria is only the NT, then I can see why Protestants think you're off base. But to continue with baseball analogies, a lot of them are out in left field... and sorry Katzpur, that includes Mormons. Really golden plates and special spectacles? Which goes to show, no matter how strange (or made up) a religion's "mythology" and beginnings were, if it works, then it's going to get followers?

 

[Katzpur]

I've met nice, spiritual people in every religion. So, in a way, does every religion have a "remnant"... those that try to do what their religion teaches? As far as Catholics go, they are not the same Church I grew up with. You guys have made some changes. But, if the criteria is only the NT, then I can see why Protestants think you're off base. But to continue with baseball analogies, a lot of them are out in left field... and sorry Katzpur, that includes Mormons. Really golden plates and special spectacles? Which goes to show, no matter how strange (or made up) a religion's "mythology" and beginnings were, if it works, then it's going to get followers?

Yeah, well, no beliefs are strange to the people who hold them to be true. It's the people who don't believe them that they seem "strange" to. That's pretty much a no-brainer it seems to me. I mean, stone tablets are all well and good, but golden plates are "strange" and "made up." God can communicate through a burning bush but not through "special spectacles." Besides, as far as I'm concerned, the whole issue of there being a "remnant" is entirely beside the point of this thread. There can quite easily and logically be "true Christians" without there being a "true Church."

 

[CG Didymus]

Yeah, well, no beliefs are strange to the people who hold them to be true. It's the people who don't believe them that they seem "strange" to. That's pretty much a no-brainer it seems to me. I mean, stone tablets are all well and good, but golden plates are "strange" and "made up." God can communicate through a burning bush but not through "special spectacles." Besides, as far as I'm concerned, the whole issue of there being a "remnant" is entirely beside the point of this thread. There can quite easily and logically be "true Christians" without there being a "true Church."

If the point of a religion is to get people to do good, then pretty much all religions are similar. If to get people to do good the religion, or supposedly God, has to come up with fantastic stories, many of which are meant to frighten people into doing good, then it makes me think that maybe it's not God but people making these things up. The stories, then, become a stumbling block for many of us. It's like the King's new clothes story... nobody wanted to admit the King was naked. So then with our religions... Is the Pope naked? Is Joseph Smith naked? Is God naked? Are we clothing our gods with light and love and power and glory? But God is invisible.

God is defined hundreds of different ways. His Son is defined and believed in several different ways... All to get people to obey some earthly and spiritual rules to get some invisible reward? Follow the Law or follow Jesus or follow whatever and things will go well and God will be with you. If you don't, God won't be with you. If you don't do right, or don't believe in the right way, you'll burn in hell. If you do good, or believe in the right thing, you'll go to God's special place in the sky. What religion doesn't have some variation of this? All of them "clothed" a little different. All of them paint a slightly different picture of God and truth. All of them have a slightly different myth.

A believer in any religion, I'm sure, tries to do their best at doing what their religion tells them to do. They can be the best people in the world, like a Mother Theresa or Mahatma Gandhi, and people in other religions are tell them that their religion is wrong or false. Some religions, and I'd even include Catholics, are very accepting of other people's beliefs. The important thing to those people is doing good and following the "do unto others " "Golden Rule" kind of philosophy. Others aren't so accepting. They believe their religion is "the only way" and go out of their way to tell others, that no matter how good they are, they are wrong. However, so many religions or sects or denominations of a religion, believe that they are the "only" ones right. But they all believe something different. At the most one of them right, but probably none of them. They all think they are the "True" church. And then, they argue over things that can't be proven or over some interpretation of some ancient verse that proves they are the ones the have it right.

No golden plates and spectacles aren't any different than Gods walking on water, or flying on horses or on chariots... or getting swallowed by fish, or rising into the sky. None of it is provable, but it all makes believers have faith that there is a spiritual reality and all is going to be good in the end.

 

[CG Didymus]

If the true Church had ever vanished or fallen away then Jesus would have been wrong when He said this:

Matthew 16:13-19 RSV-CE (13) Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" (14) And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." (15) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" (16) Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (17) And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. (18) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As you can see, in verse 18 Jesus says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Therefore, it would be impossible for the true Church to ever vanish or fall away because if such a thing had happened then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church.

That said, the Catholic Church is the one true Church and will exist until the end of time. There has never been a "great apostasy" as some religions, such as Mormons, teach. Here are a couple of articles which do a good job of dealing with the "great apostasy" theory:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/in-search-of-the-great-apostasy

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/latter-day-saints-and-the-great-apostasy

http://www.catholic.com/blog/rod-bennett/athanasius-and-the-myth-of-the-great-apostasy

Hey ZooGirl02, Jews stay Jews because they think they're right. Buddhists stay Buddhists. Catholics stay Catholic, and on and on. No one is going to change from their religion unless it stops working for them. So all of them believe their way is the right way. So then, what is your definition of the "true" Church? Obviously you can claim a direct connection back to the apostles through the popes, but not a lot of people, other than Catholics, believe the pope is really all that great. Some of them, I hear, were pretty bad. I don't know, do Catholics take responsibility for the Inquisition? Or, just the blame?

Now that whole mess with Martin Luther, who was in the right? Was the Church going the wrong way and did Luther put it back on track? No, he had to separate himself and create what he thought was the true church. However even if he did, where's his church now? I hardly hear anything about Lutherans. Does anyone believe Lutherans are the true church? But are the rest of the Protestant churches any better? Has there been one Protestant church that has stayed on track? They all had good intentions I'm sure, but how long before a little corruption seeps in?

So Catholics are no different, a little corruption, it gets dealt with and you move on. But to claim you're the true church you know it's going to be a tough sell to get Protestants to buy into Mary worship, and the statues, and a few of your other beliefs. I get the feeling they all will probably still think they are truer than you are. Too bad, one universal Christian church all believing the same thing, what a concept. But didn't you kind of have that before the Protestants mucked it all up? What was the world like when the popes did rule all of Christendom? And, I suppose all the while the poor Orthodox sat back and complained about being ignored. All the while probably thinking, Hey, we're the true church. We were there from the beginning too.

Unfortunately, even if a church, any church, did exactly what the Bible said, I don't think it would work all the well. So what are you going to do? People are going to mess it up. From the top down, the followers are going to do the minimum, like just go to church on Sunday, and then sin all the rest of the week. The leadership? Oh my God, they are only human, and they have human needs, sometimes a little on the perverted side, but still human. But not just Catholics, how many Protestant leaders get caught fooling around? So who cares about the true church, where in the hell are the true followers and the true leaders?

I wonder, which church has the least corrupt leaders and the most active members? Oh, and also, doesn't have corrupt beliefs. Dang, so many were so close. So what do they do? Yes, JW's I put you in this group. They say, "I know we can change a few Bible verses, just a little, so it points our direction. We can interpret, or misinterpret, other verses to prove we are the true way." Do religions do this? I think they do. So why should I trust any of them? Well, it's sad to say I don't. I need the truth, but I don't see it. I don't see it lived out by the lukewarm followers. So I stay in my confused state of nothingness. Dang, that's no fun. Maybe I'll join a cult. They always perk me up. "Oh we love you. Come join us and be one with the spirit of the eternal master from long ago, that was forgotten 'til are current master came to us and showed us the way. Come. Come."

You know, even Christians said that kind of thing to me. "Come, Jesus loves you. We love you. We have a fun church. We play Christian rock music. Our Pastor wears Hawaiian shirts and flip flops. Come, it's fun. Weee!" And it was fun. And to get attendants up a lot of church had to incorporate new music. But still, is the message true? Is the message the one and only truth? That's the tough one. Christians that play the "we are the only way card" got to be darn near perfect 'cause everybody's going to be watching and waiting for them to mess up, and they will. So in practice, is any church is perfect? So if none of them are perfect in practice, it's going to lead to change. The changes work for a while. The people are all inspired, for a while, then that gets old. "Hey, come to our church we speak in tongues and dance in the aisles" "That's so yesterday. We have rock bands play so loud you can't hear the devil anymore." "Rock music? Come on man, come our church we worship the Lord in rap. Come on down and feel the Spirit. Jump up and down you gotta hear it. Jesus loves you, that's fo' sure. If you feeling down, we got the cure."

So true church? No, old churches, follow old ways and old traditions and they're going to bore members and lose members. I've been to those "Bible believing" churches with 90 year old pastors. God, remember the hell fire preaching that used to go on? Yuck. That stuff gets old. Catholic masses got old. So what did you do, you livened them up. So what does the true church need? It has to follow exactly what the Bible teaches. Like that is not going to have some controversy. "Tongue are for today!" "Shut up, they went out with the apostles." "When should I get baptized? "As a baby" "What? Don't listen her. There ain't no such thing in the Bible as infant Baptism. Trust me I'm a Baptist." Anyway, after getting that all sorted out, as if it ever will, then you have to keep changing how you present the truth. Old chants, old hymns? Boring. Old style preaching? Masses in Latin? No, let's get real. The scary thing is the cults do a better job at bringing people in. Why is that? Find out and copy them, you can learn a lot from a cult.

For one thing, don't meet in a building. Do like Jesus and walk up down the road. Heal the sick, restore the sight to the blind. Get a few members thrown in jail, and have God unlock the doors for them. Turn water into wine and have a party. That'll get people to show up. "Hey, are these people filled with the Holy Spirit?" "No, They're all drunk on wine. Come on over and have drink. Hey, have you heard about Jesus?" Have a baptism where the people have to walk on water first. That'll separate the real believers from the wannabe's. Oh, this won't work? But that is the way Jesus did it? You can't do as he did? Then you'll never get people to believe those things really happened. Without a few legitimate miracles, no one is going to buy into the story. Like how many believe the Protestant faith healers? Other than Catholics, not many believe in visions of Mary and the healings and Jesus's face showing up in weird places, but that's okay, you're on the right track. But you need something big. Something to show the world that you and God are one. Do you think you could get the Pope to walk on water? It could be put on TV for the whole world to see. Jesus needed those things to prove he had the authority to speak for God. The true church does too. If can't walk on water, maybe have him walk across Niagara Falls blind folded. If he falls, then walk on water.

So ZooGirl, if you read through all of this you deserve a metal. Please comment on whatever you like, but mainly, why you think the Catholic Church is the true church. Thanks

 

[metis]

Hey ZooGirl02, Jews stay Jews because they think they're right. Buddhists stay Buddhists. Catholics stay Catholic, and on and on. No one is going to change from their religion unless it stops working for them. So all of them believe their way is the right way. So then, what is your definition of the "true" Church? Obviously you can claim a direct connection back to the apostles through the popes, but not a lot of people, other than Catholics, believe the pope is really all that great. Some of them, I hear, were pretty bad. I don't know, do Catholics take responsibility for the Inquisition? Or, just the blame?

Now that whole mess with Martin Luther, who was in the right? Was the Church going the wrong way and did Luther put it back on track? No, he had to separate himself and create what he thought was the true church. However even if he did, where's his church now? I hardly hear anything about Lutherans. Does anyone believe Lutherans are the true church? But are the rest of the Protestant churches any better? Has there been one Protestant church that has stayed on track? They all had good intentions I'm sure, but how long before a little corruption seeps in?

So Catholics are no different, a little corruption, it gets dealt with and you move on. But to claim you're the true church you know it's going to be a tough sell to get Protestants to buy into Mary worship, and the statues, and a few of your other beliefs. I get the feeling they all will probably still think they are truer than you are. Too bad, one universal Christian church all believing the same thing, what a concept. But didn't you kind of have that before the Protestants mucked it all up? What was the world like when the popes did rule all of Christendom? And, I suppose all the while the poor Orthodox sat back and complained about being ignored. All the while probably thinking, Hey, we're the true church. We were there from the beginning too.

Unfortunately, even if a church, any church, did exactly what the Bible said, I don't think it would work all the well. So what are you going to do? People are going to mess it up. From the top down, the followers are going to do the minimum, like just go to church on Sunday, and then sin all the rest of the week. The leadership? Oh my God, they are only human, and they have human needs, sometimes a little on the perverted side, but still human. But not just Catholics, how many Protestant leaders get caught fooling around? So who cares about the true church, where in the hell are the true followers and the true leaders?

I wonder, which church has the least corrupt leaders and the most active members? Oh, and also, doesn't have corrupt beliefs. Dang, so many were so close. So what do they do? Yes, JW's I put you in this group. They say, "I know we can change a few Bible verses, just a little, so it points our direction. We can interpret, or misinterpret, other verses to prove we are the true way." Do religions do this? I think they do. So why should I trust any of them? Well, it's sad to say I don't. I need the truth, but I don't see it. I don't see it lived out by the lukewarm followers. So I stay in my confused state of nothingness. Dang, that's no fun. Maybe I'll join a cult. They always perk me up. "Oh we love you. Come join us and be one with the spirit of the eternal master from long ago, that was forgotten 'til are current master came to us and showed us the way. Come. Come."

You know, even Christians said that kind of thing to me. "Come, Jesus loves you. We love you. We have a fun church. We play Christian rock music. Our Pastor wears Hawaiian shirts and flip flops. Come, it's fun. Weee!" And it was fun. And to get attendants up a lot of church had to incorporate new music. But still, is the message true? Is the message the one and only truth? That's the tough one. Christians that play the "we are the only way card" got to be darn near perfect 'cause everybody's going to be watching and waiting for them to mess up, and they will. So in practice, is any church is perfect? So if none of them are perfect in practice, it's going to lead to change. The changes work for a while. The people are all inspired, for a while, then that gets old. "Hey, come to our church we speak in tongues and dance in the aisles" "That's so yesterday. We have rock bands play so loud you can't hear the devil anymore." "Rock music? Come on man, come our church we worship the Lord in rap. Come on down and feel the Spirit. Jump up and down you gotta hear it. Jesus loves you, that's fo' sure. If you feeling down, we got the cure."

So true church? No, old churches, follow old ways and old traditions and they're going to bore members and lose members. I've been to those "Bible believing" churches with 90 year old pastors. God, remember the hell fire preaching that used to go on? Yuck. That stuff gets old. Catholic masses got old. So what did you do, you livened them up. So what does the true church need? It has to follow exactly what the Bible teaches. Like that is not going to have some controversy. "Tongue are for today!" "Shut up, they went out with the apostles." "When should I get baptized? "As a baby" "What? Don't listen her. There ain't no such thing in the Bible as infant Baptism. Trust me I'm a Baptist." Anyway, after getting that all sorted out, as if it ever will, then you have to keep changing how you present the truth. Old chants, old hymns? Boring. Old style preaching? Masses in Latin? No, let's get real. The scary thing is the cults do a better job at bringing people in. Why is that? Find out and copy them, you can learn a lot from a cult.

For one thing, don't meet in a building. Do like Jesus and walk up down the road. Heal the sick, restore the sight to the blind. Get a few members thrown in jail, and have God unlock the doors for them. Turn water into wine and have a party. That'll get people to show up. "Hey, are these people filled with the Holy Spirit?" "No, They're all drunk on wine. Come on over and have drink. Hey, have you heard about Jesus?" Have a baptism where the people have to walk on water first. That'll separate the real believers from the wannabe's. Oh, this won't work? But that is the way Jesus did it? You can't do as he did? Then you'll never get people to believe those things really happened. Without a few legitimate miracles, no one is going to buy into the story. Like how many believe the Protestant faith healers? Other than Catholics, not many believe in visions of Mary and the healings and Jesus's face showing up in weird places, but that's okay, you're on the right track. But you need something big. Something to show the world that you and God are one. Do you think you could get the Pope to walk on water? It could be put on TV for the whole world to see. Jesus needed those things to prove he had the authority to speak for God. The true church does too. If can't walk on water, maybe have him walk across Niagara Falls blind folded. If he falls, then walk on water.

So ZooGirl, if you read through all of this you deserve a metal. Please comment on whatever you like, but mainly, why you think the Catholic Church is the true church. Thanks

You might consider significantly shortening up your posts because I'm sure there's many like me who look at the above and think "Why bother"-- way too lengthy with way too many items that could be responded to. IOW, pretty much a waste of time-- get to the point as you can always expand on it later if need be.

Just a recommendation.

 

[CG Didymus]

You might consider significantly shortening up your posts because I'm sure there's many like me who look at the above and think "Why bother"-- way too lengthy with way too many items that could be responded to. IOW, pretty much a waste of time-- get to the point as you can always expand on it later if need be.

Just a recommendation.

I was ready to quit three times and then got another idea, that led to another, and another. If I don't stop now I'll do it again. Never mind, here I go. It helps me. I'm learning about what I really think as I'm writing. Unfortunately, when others do it, I do the same thing. I gloss over some of the long ones and even skip some of them. So you're right. I'll have to write it all out then edit it down to the finer points or something. Thanks

 

[metis]

I was ready to quit three times and then got another idea, that led to another, and another. If I don't stop now I'll do it again. Never mind, here I go. It helps me. I'm learning about what I really think as I'm writing. Unfortunately, when others do it, I do the same thing. I gloss over some of the long ones and even skip some of them. So you're right. I'll have to write it all out then edit it down to the finer points or something. Thanks

You're welcome, and it may well be that I'm just too anal.

 

[Katzpur]

This thread is nearly ten years old! I am amazed that it continues to be resurrected as often as it does. Having just re-read the OP and the options the poster gave in his poll, I decided to start a new thread to discuss the thought that occurred to me just now. That will give those who don't want to wade through over 550 posts a chance to contribute their thoughts on the subject. (I also do this partially because the poster of the OP hasn't been around for several years.)

 

[MJFlores]

Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy, and their founder/prophet/teacher was given special insight or revelation to restore it, could this be true?
Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, so for me if what these great latter day prophets surmised to be true, Jesus must have been wrong. Charles Taze Russel, Ellen G White, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Bahá'u'lláh, all taught in one way or another that what Jesus started became corrupted and that the bible had also become corrupted or very badly translated or parts lost from it, so they came up with their correct words of God, koran,nwt,book of mormon, pearl of great price,the great controversy and Bahá'u'lláhs writings etc.

My position is there has always been a faithfull true remnant of Christians even through the so called dark ages who adhered to simple biblical faith. I know that many departed from the faith and that heresy and apostasy have been wide spread throughout christendom at times but my question is did it completely vanish?

The early Church of Christ fell into apostasy.

Acts 20:29 New International Version (NIV)

I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

Acts 20:30 New International Version (NIV)

Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

Apostle Paul said it would come from within the first century Church of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ also mentioned of extreme persecution of the early church:

Matthew 24:9-12 New International Version (NIV)

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Apostasy became complete in 2nd century AD.

Well that is far as my understanding of history is.

 

[metis]

Apostasy became complete in 2nd century AD.

Well then, so much for Jesus' statement that he would guide the church until the end of time.

Apostle Paul said it would come from within the first century Church of Christ.

Why are you capitalizing "Church of Christ"? It was not used as a proper name back then.