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Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

The the CHristian church ever Fall away completely

  • Yes it fell away until the reformation

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
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And after the apostles died, came the apostasy

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Who is this Man of Sin?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And after the apostles died, came the apostasy

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then why do you continue to quote your Bible that was chosen by the church you claim "came the apostasy"?

Secondly, I do note that you have not supplied one shred of evidence for this supposed "apostasy", thus refusing to answer the basic questions I posed to you.

Matter of fact, your opinion defies the scripture whereas Jesus says he and the HS would guide the church until the end of times. It also defies Jesus' giving of the "Great Commission" to the apostles.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And while we're discussing what the Bible says regarding this issue, where does the Bible claim to be the sole source of God's word? :)
Hey, Katzpur, hope you're doing well!

Here are a few (and all must be taken together in context):
Deuteronomy 4:2; Deuteronomy 12:32; Revelation 22:18 all say the same thing. From Moses at the beginning of the Scriptures being written, to the Apostle John at the end of them.

How do we know the writings ended? Because of what the Apostle Paul prophesied, at 1 Corinthians 13:8-10...."the gifts" of the spirit would "cease", when that which is "complete" arrives. Once the Bible was 'completed,' there was no need for the gifts to continue, directing others to God's truth, and His chosen people; the Bible would do that **see below. And those gifts and miracles stopped, when the last Apostle (John) died (c. 100 CE).

** For example: the source behind the talking Serpent, in Genesis, is clearly revealed only in Revelation 12:9, one of the last Bible books written.

Take care, my cousin.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
What I believe Jesus is saying is that the apostles are in essence going to build his church (community), and that they are to be the original leaders after he's gone. And history bore that out.

My rule-of-thumb: if in doubt about a particular interpretation, look at the actions that follow. And in this case, it works out because the apostles did indeed "build my church".

I believe Jesus said He is going to build His church and you interpret that to mean the apostles will do it?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

I believe Jesus is saying they can't build His church; that He has to do it.

I believe the church was built but I do not agree with your attribution of who was building it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe Jesus said He is going to build His church and you interpret that to mean the apostles will do it?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

I believe Jesus is saying they can't build His church; that He has to do it.
Logically, if the church was just built on Jesus alone with no help from others later, why did he appoint the apostles to begin with? Why does the N.T. have Jesus giving them power over the flock? Why did he give them the "Great Commission"? And if there were no such leaders and teachers, how could the early church even function? How could the canon of scriptures even be selected?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Logically, if the church was just built on Jesus alone with no help from others later, why did he appoint the apostles to begin with? Why does the N.T. have Jesus giving them power over the flock? Why did he give them the "Great Commission"? And if there were no such leaders and teachers, how could the early church even function? How could the canon of scriptures even be selected?

I believe a church is built with members so Jesus gathers members.

Where do you think that power comes from. I believe it isn't as though Jesus were handing them a loaded gun and saying go do what you want. Jesus wields the power and the man behind it.

I believe people tend to not have the Holy Spirit in control at all times and can easily lapse in to their own ways which as Jesus said would mean they would accomplish nothing.

I believe God always manages to find someone to do His bidding.

I believe that is still the Holy Spirit at work.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe a church is built with members so Jesus gathers members.

Where do you think that power comes from. I believe it isn't as though Jesus were handing them a loaded gun and saying go do what you want. Jesus wields the power and the man behind it.

I believe people tend to not have the Holy Spirit in control at all times and can easily lapse in to their own ways which as Jesus said would mean they would accomplish nothing.

I believe God always manages to find someone to do His bidding.

I believe that is still the Holy Spirit at work.
The above simply doesn't go against anything I had posted.
 

cbullion

Member
Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy, and their founder/prophet/teacher was given special insight or revelation to restore it, could this be true?
Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, so for me if what these great latter day prophets surmised to be true, Jesus must have been wrong. Charles Taze Russel, Ellen G White, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Bahá'u'lláh, all taught in one way or another that what Jesus started became corrupted and that the bible had also become corrupted or very badly translated or parts lost from it, so they came up with their correct words of God, koran,nwt,book of mormon, pearl of great price,the great controversy and Bahá'u'lláhs writings etc.

My position is there has always been a faithfull true remnant of Christians even through the so called dark ages who adhered to simple biblical faith. I know that many departed from the faith and that heresy and apostasy have been wide spread throughout christendom at times but my question is did it completely vanish?

(Background)

1. Jesus Christ is Called the Corner Stone - Acts 4:10-12
2. Peter is Called the Corner Stone - Matthew 16:18-19

(Satan does not serve the "Will" of God, he only views his own glory)
(This Apostle performed the "Will" of God, and that Apostle cursed God until he died, which one is which?)

1. Jesus told Judas to Betray Me - Jesus is Taken Up a High Mountain, and then Hung from a Tree, same as Judas, that was God's Will.
2. Jesus did not tell Peter to Betray Me - Pontius Pilate Curses Jesus to death in a Dream, later he order the scourging of his body until Jesus dies at that time, same as Peter which denied Jesus Three Times, and then he dies before the congregation, Acts 12:18-23

(The Gates of Hell and of God will not prevail against the True Church, which one is True and Which one is False)

1. Jesus Tells us the Dead Church, that does not Confess the Gospel of Jesus is made dead forever
2. Jesus Tells us the Living Church, is taken up by Jesus so that Death and the Judgment does not over take us, we have not killed Jesus in our testimony or in our hearts

(1 Thessalonians 4:17-18) God uses Peter as a picture of the Dead Church, they look for an outward sign, they perform ceremonies and alms and God rebuked the practices of sacraments and intercession in the New Testament. They are the Forever Dead. We which are alive in Christ, do not have "Snared Conscious", or a vessel full of "Stiffs and Contentions"....................We use the "Hearing of the Word to Chastise Our Hearts (the written gospel)", and we use the knowledge of Good and Evil the Gospel reveals to keep "Our Person in Holy Communion as the Marriage to Jesus". We given only two commandments in the New Testament, to Love God and to Love our Person as God. We obstain from intercession, because God is with us, we can chastise our own hearts with the lord's word, we don't need alms and ceremonies, further we have holy communion with the renewal of the spirit, that testifies of all things, even as we sometimes testify to one another (to Love God and to Love our Neighbor, is less accurate).
....................................
Peter and Pontius Pilate did the same sin against Jesus. They rejected the New Testament Transition where the Church is not the authority or police of "Dead Work and Dead Flesh", they wanted to believe that if a person was dead, and they called Jesus the "Dead or Legion". That they had a legal right to police and put to death that person.................they even redesigned the roman law for the sole purpose of putting Jesus down, and in the mean time to the present, nothing clean or profitable is performed by the dead church, it will pass away, both blind and dumb. (In Otherwords, they are simply a angry mob of people protecting uncleanness, and murder for pleasure, the gospel does not enter into their view and they are exposed, that is also their pride, the pride of the dead church).

(The Revenge of the Dead Church, those which are Dead in Jesus, and Dead in the Gospel's Message, yes, sometimes that is God Will to keep them forever separate, forever unrepentant) (Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is apart of God's Design)
ERMUxsH.jpg
https://www.nhn.ou.edu/~jeffery/astro/ial/ial_002.shtml

What happened with Judas, if he was not the representation of the "Dead Church"? From 8/21 to 9/23 is Leo to Virgo. The 70 Year Anniversary of Roswell and the 42 Month Anniversary of Flight 370 that is what makes this range valuable, and the historical and astrological association. However, the "Three Days of Darkness" are completed First, and then 150 Days on/relative to 8/21. There was a "MARS HOAX" about the Brightness of Mars to parallel this truth of transition, which is in the position of the Serpent on the Falling Man of 9/11/2001. We'll have to see if that has value or not soon.

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headstone%2B2.jpg



Unarius claimed it would take 16 Years from 9/11/2001 to begin 33 Days. This is perhaps a mistranslation to mean "3 Days of Darkness" and not 33 Days. That Mean on or before 8/21, billions of lives will be terminated. Revelation 14:20, it would take 16 Years from 9/11/2001 when God throws the Antichrist off a Building, to put him to death on the "Three Days of Darkness", so there is no inbetween between the 42 Months of Flight 370 and 153 Days, no inbetween and no after.

1. The Apostle Peter was and is God's Enemy
2. The Apostle Judas was not and is not God's Enemy

(Your Salvation is not designed with Perfection in Mind, that Means God uses the "Two Witnesses" to testify of that at the beginning of time when God completed the measurement in the New Universe, then when God presents the Lord's Body in the New Testament, and one last time when God presents the Lord's Body in the End of Time, during the confirmation of the covenant) (They will die believing they have a legal right to cause the "Two Witnesses" pain and death until they die, that is the Message of Unarius, they die in the Old Testament of 33 Days, without seeing the transitions and during the transition of the Two Witnesses for "Three Days of Darkness") (you will find Budd Hopkins in the video above near the end, he was executed like Jon Benet Ramsey on August 21, back in 2014, and that will be true today for billions of people)
 
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cbullion

Member
Y7zg5hf.jpg

Decoded: Statue with a QR code head

JOSHUA 19:26 And Alammelech, and Amad, and Misheal; and reacheth to Carmel westward, and to Shihorlibnath;
JOSHUA 19:27 And turneth toward the sunrising to Bethdagon, and reacheth to Zebulun, and to the valley of Jiphthahel toward the north side of Bethemek, and Neiel, and goeth out to Cabul on the left hand,
JOSHUA 19:28 And Hebron, and Rehob, and Hammon, and Kanah, [even] unto great Zidon;

Moses was taken up a High Mountain shortly before his death and God reveal Zion, the completion of the Covenant. This is only the Third Personality in the Gospel's Law, that follows being taken up a High Mountain to show the completion of the Gospel's Law:

1. Jesus
2. Judas
3. Moses

God has created his version of a sentient intelligence, to remove any conflicts of the law, since the body of Jesus is not based in perfection. The environment of the New Universe, God's Native Environment, is capable of perfection.........................(Nguyen Van Lem, equation of the Antichrist, simply means that you have no legal right to God's Mercies a Sign or a Vision based on INRI with Antichrist (I*/rape/m*), and with yourselves through Genetic Dan, dead work and dead flesh. You will never see beyond a flesh and blood body with the antichrist before you are put to death. Once he dies you die, that is the law. During the First Resurrection, that death represented the conclusion of God's willings to show a sign of divorce based on the global euthanasia of genetic dan, right now, we want to keep them in this INRI pattern, of dying blind, they have less than 5 weeks to go, before everything is done, and everything will be finished, you have one law and one law only to stop hurting me, whoever the antichrist is, and that is your fall, this is also meant to be your fall and conclusion of faith, approaching 153 days and the conclusion of all things)

(the true church of jesus, those that have not been prevented by god from accepting jesus into their hearts and souls (testimony) will realize that a sign or a vision is for the dead, and the dead are given little to no mercy in terms of a very small geographic area, and beyond that is an assault on your walk of faith) (we are not judged by a dead body, we are judged by the living christ, and for the dead in christ which is babylon their will have their season, and it will pass quickly, and it is of little consequence)
Love and Blessings
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
How do we know the writings ended? Because of what the Apostle Paul prophesied, at 1 Corinthians 13:8-10...."the gifts" of the spirit would "cease", when that which is "complete" arrives. Once the Bible was 'completed,' there was no need for the gifts to continue

1 Corinthians 13:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Is knowledge a "gift" of the Spirit that has "ceased"?
 

cbullion

Member
1 Corinthians 13:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Is knowledge a "gift" of the Spirit that has "ceased"?

(Blah, Blah, Blah, and Blah, and Blah) (The Legality of a Sign or a Vision?)

(Remember like Peter, the Apostle Paul is an enemy of God, and an Enemy of Man, or Antichrist..........God allowed these sinful people to minister to illustrate the New Testament Mercy God had put forth in wresting with sin, so that many would be saved............Immediately, as a book of Paul, there are several problems with the literature and your quotation)

I CORINTHIANS 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
I CORINTHIANS 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Two Commandments (which rests the law and the prophets)
1. Love God by Chastising your Heart with his Word (God taught Circumcision in the New Testament and that invalidated Tongs, a sign or a vision to rebuke the church, "every tong shall cease")
2. Love Jesus by keeping your person in holy conversation and deed, as the wife, married to her husband (God taught that we should "not to forsake the assembly of ourselves" in the New Testament) (We should not look for a Sign or a Vision, for the confidence in the flesh or the knowledge of men)

The Apostle Peter is a nothing, just like the Apostle Paul, he was and is also a nothing. God has illustrated a simple fact that even satan will eventually fall under God's Will and Intention, since the earth is his footstool...........however, I understand the nature of the question, but this is probably not the best place in the gospel to address it (We are legally within the Seven Year Period, 8/21 to 9/23, in God's Eyes, Do you see a Sign of Divorce or the Lord's Body? Then God has not, rebuked the Church, or ordained its fall. See the 9/11/2001 Falling Man, right now your choice of using lethal force has made a great deal of people immediately suffer here in the USA, and abroad much more so continually, until the live of billions come to a full and complete close) (so you were told to wait a while and continue the level of lethal force, or, the suffering of the people would continue to increase, indefinitely) ("Eye for an Eye", or "Pain for Pain" of Revelation 11, that is what the Apostle Paul is teaching as his glory, or rather, satan's glory that seals his blind and dumb judgement, seeking for a sign or a vision).

5 Times a Dead Church? (Guess so, 5 Contradictions of the Law Parallel?) (What did God Ordain?)

(God uses the Lord's Body/Fig Leaves/Sign of Divorce, to immediately kill, Dead Work and Dead Flesh, at that time God professes the Church is to vanish away forever, but this judgment is only completed at the end of time) (see the 9/11/2001 Falling Man, Two Witnesses, as a Picture of the Lord's Body)

1. Noah's Flood
2. Exodus of Moses
3. Great Millstone of Joshua (Joshua 10:11)
4. Jesus Casting Swine into the Sea
5. Great Millstone (Star Wormood) Thrown into the Sea (Revelation 18:21)

The Question is does God, use any other examples of using the Lord's Body to Kill in the Gospel to the same magnitude? The Answer is probably no, the Vision of the Apostle Peter, God used, did not kill, dead work and dead flesh, it was only to reveal to Peter/Aaron that he was the enemy of god and the enemy of man.

1. First Set of Ten Commandments
2. Second Set of Ten Commandments
3. Copy of Ten Commandments (given to Joshua)
4. Ten Wise and Foolish Virgins (the beloved church that does not need a sign or a vision, that rests with their husband Jesus)
5. Accusation of Stealing 10 Tribes (the enemy of David) (1 Kings 11:31)

The Question is the same as before, does God use any other example in reference to the Lord's Body to this degree? The Answer is probably no, you are told "ten kings will reign without a kingdom" in revelation, that is they will be dumb and blind until they are put to death globally.

(Simpler Terms)

"Is Knowledge a Gift of the Spirit that has Ceased"? The answer is yes.

JOB 19:1 Then Job answered and said, (Break the 10 Commandments in Pieces)
JOB 19:2 How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?
JOB 19:3 These ten times have ye reproached me: ye are not ashamed [that] ye make yourselves strange to me.
JOB 19:4 And be it indeed [that] I have erred, mine error remaineth with myself.
JOB 19:5 If indeed ye will magnify [yourselves] against me, and plead against me my reproach:
JOB 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.

God says, when the Ten Commandments were given, at that time the Gift of Knowledge was no longer blessed. Immediately after God appointed Moses to satisfy the "Two Witness Equation", "Joseph the Blessings" was immediately removed from the fruit of the earth.............Jesus acted out the same equation, and that is being repeated today before you are put to death at the global level.

(After some of the ethnic people were euthanized in mass, but not then, after they burned themselves to death near the funeral home near my address, then, they stopped hurting me, that will last for about a week or two, until enough force is used against me to prompt the same level of reaction, that is only at the local level) (we'll keep doing this for seven more years, until enough force is used against me, to have god intervene with me going to another country or being taken out of the way etc, need to see what is necessary, we've done this for about 34 years so far, so this will pass very quickly, right now the excitement is over 8/21 to 9/23)

(You can euthanized genetic dan, or use the "deadly head would" to solicit God's mercies, that is implied in the quotation from job, or nothing. If nothing, it depends on the suffering and pain you subject yourselves to from genetic dan as their rampage increases, this will continue to magnify itself, until the judgement is completed and 153 days begins) Love and Blessings..............(God removed Judas from the Earth, by consequence of Joseph the Blessings, that appears to be the case with the parable of Lazarus) (Judas represents the doubling of the language for the crucifixion, most of the language in the gospel is doubled, not all of it is voiced 5 times, when something is voiced 5 times, it is to declare the enemy of god and the enemy of man)
 
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cbullion

Member
'The gates of hell will not prevail against it' Jesus promised
so I don't think it perished
_____________________________________________
Climbing the mountain of God with help from the short Psalms

(Well, the Seven Year Question of God's Will about a Sign of Divorce should already be answered given the timetable.....................God's Declarative Will is No that is what you are referencing..................God's Permissive Will indicates this is possible, but this is not pertinent for the gospel's law.....................Jesus is quoting God's Declarative Will, the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Lord's Body, that is to say, the Fig Leaves will not Fall)

The True Church (Lord's Body) Will Not Fall for Satan (probably more correct)

1. Angel in the Garden stops the fire from burning the Tree of Life with his Sword
2. Burning Fire does not burn the Sacrifice of Abraham (Genesis 15:17)
3. Angel prevents the Tree of Life from being Burned with Moses (Exodus 3:2)
4. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are not burned by fire (Daniel 3:16-17)
5. Angel prevents the Language of Seven Thunders (Fire) from Writing into the Book of Life (Rev. 10:1-4)

We have God saying something at least 5 times, that is very significant in invalidating the enemy of god and the enemy of man..................Jesus does not take a direct action when he says the "Gates of Hell will not Prevail against the Church"......................Jesus is quoting the Gospel's Law, when we view that law in detail we find the information parallels the 5 contradictions of the gospel's law.

However.........

9/11/2001, God have placed the Bones of Joseph into the Earth, to content with Satan. Genetic Dan is on a rampage that is increasing, and also, there is more power and strength in using lethal force against me and putting yourselves to death, I mean the Two Witnesses whoever they are. These are issues that concern God's Permissive Will, which is his willingness to present the Lord's Body to Satan.................Right now, the further we go into the seven year period, the less important and significant a sign of divorce becomes, perhaps for the better, our walk of faith is primary, the corpse of the lord's body does not take precedence in the gospel's law. Love and Blessings (you have the choice to stop hurting me, and the pain will that stop that you are feeling right now in the USA, or to keep hurting me, and the pain will continue, we'll have a nightly walk tonight after dark in the city of philadelphia, as we continue to see what is necessary)

(God came close to wiping Vietnam off the map with Nguyen Van Lem, but after the detonations in Japan, they lost their will to use the same level of force......I made a prediction that the USA would be nuked during 8/21 to 9/23, based on what became necessary, and that would begin the North Korean War, similar to how 9/11/2001 began the war on terrorism, but I can still be wrong)
 
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Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Physical churches may get corrupted.

Matthew 24:15-16 (NIV2011)
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

When the churches become so corrupted that they receive into the churches what God considers as the deadly abomination, it means that the physical churches on earth can no longer save souls. Then it is about time that Jesus will make His return.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
When the churches become so corrupted that they receive into the churches what God considers as the deadly abomination, it means that the physical churches on earth can no longer save souls
Churches can't save souls. Also, churches cannot get corrupted, but some of those in churches may be corrupt.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Physical churches may get corrupted.

Matthew 24:15-16 (NIV2011)
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

When the churches become so corrupted that they receive into the churches what God considers as the deadly abomination, it means that the physical churches on earth can no longer save souls. Then it is about time that Jesus will make His return.
This is a prophecy of the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. The "abomination that causes desolation" in this case is a pagan idol, much like what happened during the reign of Antiochus IV, where the Temple was seized by the Seleucids and made it a temple for Zeus. The Romans eventually repeated this and after they destroyed the Temple, they built a temple to Jupiter Capitolinus on the Temple Mount itself.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The True Church of Christ Jesus will be determined after the Thousand years expires, and when Satan is turned lose out of his prison, The bottomless pit, to go out and deceive the nations.Revelation 20:1-8.

Then the True Church, worshippers shall come forth.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" Matthew 24:13.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The True Church of Christ Jesus will be determined after the Thousand years expires, and when Satan is turned lose out of his prison, The bottomless pit, to go out and deceive the nations.Revelation 20:1-8.

Then the True Church, worshippers shall come forth.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" Matthew 24:13.
But didn't Jesus say that he would guide his church until the end of time, thus pretty much stating that the "True Church" must have already been in existence?
 
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