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Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

The the CHristian church ever Fall away completely

  • Yes it fell away until the reformation

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Well then, so much for Jesus' statement that he would guide the church until the end of time.
Why are you capitalizing "Church of Christ"? It was not used as a proper name back then.

Yes it was metis.

Romans 16:16New International Version (NIV)
Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.

Acts 20:28 Lamsa version

ACTS2028LAMSA.jpg


Church_of_Christ_MSS.preview.jpg
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why are you capitalizing "Church of Christ"? It was not used as a proper name back then.
All the churches of Christ send greetings.

Note what I posted in regards to you using it as a "proper name", which are capitalized. Note that "church of Christ" is not capitalized because it was not a proper name that was being used.

Also, how can a church fall into apostasy, especially since a church is not a person? Some within the church can fall into apostasy but, logically, an entire institution can't.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Note what I posted in regards to you using it as a "proper name", which are capitalized. Note that "church of Christ" is not capitalized because it was not a proper name that was being used.

Also, how can a church fall into apostasy, especially since a church is not a person? Some within the church can fall into apostasy but, logically, an entire institution can't.

But I believe, the first church fell into apostasy that is why the world have so many doctrines which are different from the teachings of the Bible.

Apostle Paul stated this fact:

Acts 20:29-30 New International Version (NIV)

I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

So the apostasy came after Apostle Paul left, that was a long time ago, isn't it? Paul the Apostle (Latin: Paulus; Greek: Παῦλος, translit. Paulos; c. 5 – c. 67), - what is this group of men that will arise and distort the truth? Apparently they organized a religious group because Apostle Paul said they would draw away disciples after them and distort the truth.

Then I read this: 13th paragraph
How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?

Very early in post-apostolic times, however. the Church did acquire a proper name--and precisely in order to distinguish herself from rival bodies which by then were already beginning to form. The name that the Church acquired when it became necessary for her to have a proper name was the name by which she has been known ever since-the Catholic Church.

Well somethings afoot, I think.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy,...

What does the Bible say regarding this issue?

Many people don't know, because they aren't taught from the Bible; they just listen to a man talk and maybe quote Scriptures, usually out of context.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But I believe, the first church fell into apostasy that is why the world have so many doctrines which are different from the teachings of the Bible.
Again, how is it logical or even possible for an entire institution to fall into "apostasy"? Some people can, maybe including some leaders, but it doesn't make any sense to attach such a label to an entire institution.

Secondly, did not Jesus say that he would guide his church until the end of time? Was Jesus lying when he said that, iyo?

Thirdly, just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church in the 4th and early 5th centuries that chose the Bible you read-- not the other way around.

Finally, what may be different interpretations may account for what you call different teachings. According to Catholic Canon Law, no teaching from the church can violate what's found in the N.T. However, there can be some changes added as long as that basic teachings remain.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Again, how is it logical or even possible for an entire institution to fall into "apostasy"? Some people can, maybe including some leaders, but it doesn't make any sense to attach such a label to an entire institution.

Secondly, did not Jesus say that he would guide his church until the end of time? Was Jesus lying when he said that, iyo?

Thirdly, just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church in the 4th and early 5th centuries that chose the Bible you read-- not the other way around.

Finally, what may be different interpretations may account for what you call different teachings. According to Catholic Canon Law, no teaching from the church can violate what's found in the N.T. However, there can be some changes added as long as that basic teachings remain.

Logical or possible? Historical, if I may say.

Anti-Christian policies in the Roman Empire occurred intermittently over a period of over two centuries until the year 313 AD when the Roman EmperorsConstantine the Great and Licinius jointly promulgated the Edict of Milan which legalised the Christian religion.
Anti-Christian policies in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

Secondly, I think the Lord Jesus Christ prophesied the apostasy which is about to happen:
upload_2017-4-26_22-41-15.jpeg


Matthew 7:15-17 New International Version (NIV)

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
upload_2017-4-26_22-42-29.jpeg


Matthew 24:10-12New International Version (NIV)

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Matthew 24:23-25New International Version (NIV)

At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

About a year ago, the Canadian Bible Society uploaded a video about the history of the Bible - it is really nice and informative.

Whatever, canons or catechism or dogma the RCC institutes, it affects its adherents. But I believe, the Bible only - any translations whether Catholic or Protestant translated as long it is the Bible - it is good enough for me and for everybody.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Whatever, canons or catechism or dogma the RCC institutes, it affects its adherents. But I believe, the Bible only - any translations whether Catholic or Protestant translated as long it is the Bible - it is good enough for me and for everybody.
You are being logically and historically inconsistent since, and let me repeat, it was the Catholic Church that selected the Bible you use in the 4th & 5th centuries. Since you can't seemingly get passed that, and since you make the same absurd claims over and over again, I guess there's really no where else this discussion can go.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy, and their founder/prophet/teacher was given special insight or revelation to restore it, could this be true?
Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, so for me if what these great latter day prophets surmised to be true, Jesus must have been wrong. Charles Taze Russel, Ellen G White, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Bahá'u'lláh, all taught in one way or another that what Jesus started became corrupted and that the bible had also become corrupted or very badly translated or parts lost from it, so they came up with their correct words of God, koran,nwt,book of mormon, pearl of great price,the great controversy and Bahá'u'lláhs writings etc.

My position is there has always been a faithfull true remnant of Christians even through the so called dark ages who adhered to simple biblical faith. I know that many departed from the faith and that heresy and apostasy have been wide spread throughout christendom at times but my question is did it completely vanish?

It is yes and no.

Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it

This is not referring to a physical church but rather a infallible spiritual church. A physical 'church' may go corrupted but not the the church Jesus built in 3 days. No physical church has been built in 3 days. To put it another way, Apostle churches are an earthly implementation of the spiritual church God built through Jesus Christ.

Before end time, an apostle's church can be identified basically by the faith statement specified in the Apostle's Creed. It is a creed serves as an indicator that "this church still has the power to save souls".

On the other hand, God's earthly temple will experience 3 stages;

Stage one - God's earthly representative is the Jews. The Jews are more like the keeper of the OT Canon for God.
Stage two - God's earlthy representative was shifted from the Jews to the Catholics because the Jews went corrupted and didn't qualify themselves to be the keeper of the NT. Thus the Catholics are assigned the role of keeper of the NT Canon.
Stage three - in a similar fashion, God's earthly representative has been shifted from the Catholics to the Protestants. Now the Protestants are authenticated and that's why only the Protestant Church can have both a correct OT Canon and a NT Canon. The Jews can only have a correct OT Canon while the Catholics can only have a correct NT Canon both not both. This however doesn't say that Catholic Church has lost its power to save. It still has the power to save as indicated by the faith statement, that is Apostle's Creed, it upholds.


The Apostle's Creed is a necessity because one can easily tell what the Jews are and what a Catholic Church is. However, no one can tell clearly if a Protestant church is an apostle church or not due to the many denominations. Disregarding its denomination, a Protestant church can still have the power to save souls as long as it declares that it's faith complies to the Apostle's Creed.


End time on the other will be a game changer. When end time comes, Satan will try to introduce a sin (or sins) to be legalized inside God's earthly churches. An example can be that, say, homosexuality (an abomination) has been widely accepted by the earthly churches (both Catholic and Protestant). Under this specific circumstance, even the churches still uphold the Apostle's Creed they no longer have the power to save. This is the situation prophesied by Daniel (and Jesus Christ),

Matthew 24:15-16 (NIV2011)
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


The sole purpose of planet earth's existence is for God to save souls and to bring them to the future eternity - heaven. If His this purpose is defeated as a result of no church on earth still having the power to save (a desolation), then it is the time for Him to put an end to the current world.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This is not referring to a physical church but rather a infallible spiritual church.
If one reads the verse in its context, it's quite clear Jesus was referring to the physical church because he then goes on to describe the functions and importance of the apostles.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
If one reads the verse in its context, it's quite clear Jesus was referring to the physical church because he then goes on to describe the functions and importance of the apostles.

No, it you read it correctly physical church cannot be built in 3 days! He refers to the infallible spiritual church He built in 3 days at the time when He's crucified and raised. The earthly implementation of this church may fail, as it did like the Catholic church.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, it you read it correctly physical church cannot be built in 3 days! He refers to the infallible spiritual church He built in 3 days at the time when He's crucified and raised. The earthly implementation of this church may fail, as it did like the Catholic church.
Matthew 16:[16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So, he's obviously talking to the apostles about their role in leading the physical church.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
The first century church fell into apostasy. I believe the bible have shown this emphatically.

upload_2017-4-29_10-9-52.jpeg


1 Timothy 4:1-5 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
Apostle Paul said:

Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,

Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared,

images


Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

images


Matthew 24:9-12 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus said:

Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Based on the verses in the Bible shown above the first century Church of Christ completely fell away:
  • many departed from faith
  • they listened to errors of the false prophets
  • they were deceived
  • they introduced doctrines of devils
  • many were betrayed, hated and put to death
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The first century church fell into apostasy. I believe the bible have shown this emphatically.
If you believe this, then maybe hand your Bible over to someone else who can use it because it was the Catholic Church that chose your Bible in the latter 4th and early 5th centuries.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
If you believe this, then maybe hand your Bible over to someone else who can use it because it was the Catholic Church that chose your Bible in the latter 4th and early 5th centuries.

The Bible existed even before the Catholic Church started calling itself as Catholic in 107 A.D., seven years after the last apostle (John) died.

upload_2017-4-29_22-19-2.jpeg


Luke 4:16-21 New International Version (NIV)

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

There were New Testament scriptures in the hands of the first Christians as the apostles Paul, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Peter and John wrote letters to churches in Israel and Gentile lands.

The apostles like John, wrote about false prophets leading people astray.
images


1 John 2:26 New International Version (NIV)

I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

So the Bible existed already.
In fact below is an excerpt on an article on Huffington Post
THE BLOG
05/20/2013 02:57 pm ET | Updated Jul 20, 2013
Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years By Bernard Starr

The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages.

Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years | The Huffington Post

upload_2017-4-29_22-34-53.jpeg


The true church fell away and one of the method was to suppress the truth

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, Romans 1:18

I think the evidence about how the true church is not only in the Bible but bolstered by the records of the Vatican archives.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Bible existed even before the Catholic Church started calling itself as Catholic in 107 A.D., seven years after the last apostle (John) died.
I have linked the reality to you before and yet you keep returning to the above. Again: Christian biblical canons - Wikipedia Let me recommend that you read sections 2 and 3.

Again, the canon of your Bible was not chosen until the 4th & 5th centuries, and that is clearly a historical fact. Luther actually wanted to remove James from your Bible but didn't. Luther also included in his first German Bible the Apocrypha between the two testaments.

Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years | The Huffington Post
That was done because all too many people simply didn't have enough background in theological matters, so it would be all too easy to jump to false conclusions. But if they went to mass, at each one they would hear readings from four sections of the Bible (I'm including the Psalms that are chanted between the 1st and 2nd readings during the mass), which is a process that still is used today. And nowadays Catholics are encouraged to read the Bible regularly, especially since it's much easier to get help today than hundreds of years ago. [btw, I personally do not believe the CC did the right thing in regards to telling their congregants not to read the Bible]

So, to whom do you intend to give your Bible to?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Iti s the basis of many sects and cults that the Christian church fell into apostasy, and their founder/prophet/teacher was given special insight or revelation to restore it, could this be true?
Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, so for me if what these great latter day prophets surmised to be true, Jesus must have been wrong. Charles Taze Russel, Ellen G White, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Bahá'u'lláh, all taught in one way or another that what Jesus started became corrupted and that the bible had also become corrupted or very badly translated or parts lost from it, so they came up with their correct words of God, koran,nwt,book of mormon, pearl of great price,the great controversy and Bahá'u'lláhs writings etc.

My position is there has always been a faithfull true remnant of Christians even through the so called dark ages who adhered to simple biblical faith. I know that many departed from the faith and that heresy and apostasy have been wide spread throughout christendom at times but my question is did it completely vanish?

I believe there is probably enough evidence to say the Church has continually existed.

I find no evidence of this in the Qu'ran, the Ba'hai wrings or in the book of Mormon. I am not familiar with the others. I know the Church of Christ and the Way International tend to think that practices were corrupted but not the original text. However I find both groups to be in as much error or more than any other group.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No.



I agree. This would include Protestants in my opinion, who try to divide the indivisible body of Christ.



We could include here the Protestant canon, which cuts out Church Tradition and several books of the Catholic Canon.

I don't believe that affects the Christian faith. I believe it puts the books that were extricated in the proper perspective.

I believe that is too general a statement. I have never heard any Baptist preacher speak against the indivisible body of Christ. Probably what you are referring to is the concept of who is actually a part of that body. I believe that is a natural division. Jesus is either Lord and Savior or He is not.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Matthew 16:[16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So, he's obviously talking to the apostles about their role in leading the physical church.

I believe that is an unreasonable conclusion. There is no mention of the church in verse 19. In verse 18 Jesus says He builds the Church.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe that is an unreasonable conclusion. There is no mention of the church in verse 19. In verse 18 Jesus says He builds the Church.
What I believe Jesus is saying is that the apostles are in essence going to build his church (community), and that they are to be the original leaders after he's gone. And history bore that out.

My rule-of-thumb: if in doubt about a particular interpretation, look at the actions that follow. And in this case, it works out because the apostles did indeed "build my church".
 
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