The following things about your religion aren't special...

[The Kilted Heathen]

False to you is just fine to another. How many paths up a mountain are there, blackdog?

 

[Blackdog22]

All faith comes from the same place.
All paradox can be reconciled.

I was more hoping for an explanation of how that can be. If it logically makes no sense, then its nothing to be taken seriously. At least, that is how I see it.

I do agree, faith comes from the same place, the persons mind. It just has no bearing on whether something is true or not and thus, is a bad reason for believing imo. Unless you prefer in believing in false things of course, but that would also strike me as very odd.

 

[Blackdog22]

False to you is just fine to another. How many paths up a mountain are there, blackdog?

Depends on the mountain, and whether I have a helicopter on hand I do understand that believing in something that is false is fine for some people, I just have a hard time grasping why you would. Does this happen in other aspects of your life? Do you wake up one morning and inaccurately believe there is no gravity and walk off a building? To be clear, I don't think you actually do this, it just seems like this concept is only applied to this very niche, and very odd concept, that is called faith. It seems to me that you are accepting and taking your mind to places you would otherwise find completely ridiculous in reality. That is to say, it appears to be a mental disconnect in humans for... I dunno. I suppose it makes people feel good.

 

[allfoak]

I was more hoping for an explanation of how that can be. If it logically makes no sense, then its nothing to be taken seriously. At least, that is how I see it.

I do agree, faith comes from the same place, the persons mind. It just has no bearing on whether something is true or not and thus, is a bad reason for believing imo. Unless you prefer in believing in false things of course, but that would also strike me as very odd.

You do not understand faith as you say.
If you did you would not keep saying that it is used to believe in false things.
I do not believe in false things.
That would be rather foolish or odd as you say.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

it just seems like this concept is only applied to this very niche, and very odd concept, that is called faith.

Faith takes many forms. Sometimes it's in people, other times gods.

 

[Blackdog22]

You do not understand faith as you say.
If you did you would not keep saying that it is used to believe in false things.
I do not believe in false things.
That would be rather foolish or odd as you say.

However using your definition of faith would indeed allow Frankenstein to exist, or fairies, if one decided to put their faith in such concepts. Don't necessarily think this is ridiculous either, there are people who believe in fairies. My question is, using your definition of faith, how can you say this is false? If you think anything extraordinary is true, just on the basis that one has to have faith in it, then you have already made the argument for any number of false things that I could label here in this thread. In that case, what good is faith and how does it make anything true in the real world and not merely inside of someones mind?

 

[Blackdog22]

Faith takes many forms. Sometimes it's in people, other times gods.

Agreed, but we are talking about very different concepts of faith. The usage of the word starts to become quite aggravating when it comes to this. Having faith in my brother to watch my kids is indeed some form of faith, it isn't however blind faith, it is faith based on experience in reality. When it comes to gods, you hardly have anything remotely similar to draw from. The two become quite different in this case. As I mentioned earlier in the thread. If you ask me to have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow I will gladly take that bet on faith, if you tell me to have faith that the sun will turn into a magical being who will destroy us all tomorrow, I will bet against you because the possibility and evidence to draw from in these two situations are drastically different.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Agreed, but we are talking about very different concepts of faith. The usage of the word starts to become quite aggravating when it comes to this. Having faith in my brother to watch my kids is indeed some form of faith, it isn't however blind faith, it is faith based on experience in reality. When it comes to gods, you hardly have anything remotely similar to draw from.

Au contrare. Every year, towards it's end, I have faith that the Gods I worship will return again. I have faith that the crops planted in honor of Freyr and Jord will grow, tended by them and my own works. And when the atmosphere becomes too conflicted, I have faith that Thor will arrive to set it right.

And yes, you could argue "that's not the same, those are all real things" but I would say that's quite framing the argument. Those are theistic beliefs that are based on experiences in reality. Not all theistic beliefs are believing that the sun is going to turn into an avenging destroyer.

 

[allfoak]

However using your definition of faith would indeed allow Frankenstein to exist, or fairies, if one decided to put their faith in such concepts. Don't necessarily think this is ridiculous either, there are people who believe in fairies. My question is, using your definition of faith, how can you say this is false? If you think anything extraordinary is true, just on the basis that one has to have faith in it, then you have already made the argument for any number of false things that I could label here in this thread. In that case, what good is faith and how does it make anything true in the real world and not merely inside of someones mind?

Faith is not blind if exercised.
One learns through experience if their faith is misdirected.
What you put your faith in is what you will receive.

 

[Blackdog22]

Au contrare. Every year, towards it's end, I have faith that the Gods I worship will return again. I have faith that the crops planted in honor of Freyr and Jord will grow, tended by them and my own works. And when the atmosphere becomes too conflicted, I have faith that Thor will arrive to set it right.

And yes, you could argue "that's not the same, those are all real things" but I would say that's quite framing the argument. Those are theistic beliefs that are based on experiences in reality. Not all theistic beliefs are believing that the sun is going to turn into an avenging destroyer.

Ah, yes Norse mythology. I don't wish to take away from your beliefs, nor are your beliefs damaging to anyone. This is of course where I have to tread carefully so I don't offend. The only question I will ask is if I start my car tomorrow and it runs and I give the honor to Zeus could it truly be said that Zeus had anything to do with my car running? Wasn't it the manufacturer who made it? Wasn't it that I had gasoline in it? Do my monthly checkups not take away from the idea that Zeus had anything to do with it? Why would I even include Zeus in this equation?

I suppose it is quite clear we simply believe in reality on a different level from one another. I do respect your beliefs, I cannot say they are not true, nor would I try. My primary point is trying to understand why.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

if I start my car tomorrow and it runs and I give the honor to Zeus could it truly be said that Zeus had anything to do with my car running?

Zeus (and, in the same vein, Thor) are credited and attributed to thunderstorms (among other things), not all electrical function. Modern technology is usually not included in honoring of the Gods.

However, a thing that has become more common is that of - for this case - vehicle wights, as opposed to land or house wights; spirits that inhabit the land - wild or inhabited. With the belief of vehicle wights, however, it is recognizing that all components of a vehicle inevitably came from nature, and carry with them energies and elements. Our vehicles have personalities, temperaments; one can drive five different vehicles of the same make and model right off the line, and have five different experiences. Our offerings to appease these wights come in tuneups, vehicle maintenance, gas and oil.

A modern look at spirits, but not unprecedented.

My primary point is trying to understand why.

It is the experience of the believer, framed by culture and the experience itself, that makes for belief. Not blind belief, that's taught and adhered to without reason. It must be understood, and recognized, that we're not just dealing with ideals and fantasy; those of us who actively and knowingly worship have experience with our gods as higher beings and intelligences. It is why I worship Thor, rather than Zeus, in a culture that certainly does not pressure or suggest Thor. Yet they are the Gods who call to me, who's voices and presences I hear and feel in the world around me.

True Faith is something that's very difficult to put a finger on or explain in words that satisfy. It's a shortcoming that's frustrating even - and especially - to the believer. In my experience I've found that if a person can perfectly explain their beliefs, they're following a script, not faith.

 

[allfoak]

Ah, yes Norse mythology. I don't wish to take away from your beliefs, nor are your beliefs damaging to anyone. This is of course where I have to tread carefully so I don't offend. The only question I will ask is if I start my car tomorrow and it runs and I give the honor to Zeus could it truly be said that Zeus had anything to do with my car running? Wasn't it the manufacturer who made it? Wasn't it that I had gasoline in it? Do my monthly checkups not take away from the idea that Zeus had anything to do with it? Why would I even include Zeus in this equation?

I suppose it is quite clear we simply believe in reality on a different level from one another. I do respect your beliefs, I cannot say they are not true, nor would I try. My primary point is trying to understand why.

If you are interested in my reason why read post number 73 in the what are we made of thread.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Many of it teachings are beyond the intellect of men.

Like what?

If you have any indication Jesus does not love Satan, now would be a good time to present it.

The apocalypse wouldn't be a thing if Jesus and Satan were besties again...

So what's your point?

I'm saying that bloodlust could happen to deities too.

Not funny at all, it is expected.

Ah, but which side is telling the truth? People who worshipped Baal were killed by Yahweh's followers for just wanting some rain so their crops would grow. Yahweh, being the chaotic sea god from the Epic of Baal, just floods everything He doesn't like.

Zeus (and, in the same vein, Thor) are credited and attributed to thunderstorms (among other things), not all electrical function. Modern technology is usually not included in honoring of the Gods.

Yeah, they aren't the nerds of their mythologies. Hephaestus is one example of a go-to for awesome machines.

 

[savagewind]

Mmm, no part of that definition applies to ones belief in a God/gods. Thinking doing and saying are different than believing in a God. However, I can work with this definition because it includes belief which was exactly what I was saying before. This definition would also encompass why a terrorist would do what he does. I don't think we are at odds, but you made it seem so.

I think you say that faith means a strong belief in God. I say a person can believe very strongly in God, but not act in a way that proves it. I say faith means proving belief in God. Proving is an action verb.

 

[omega2xx]

Name just one that would be impossible for a man to come up with. I would like to debate that point, although maybe another thread would be better for this. That isn't to say I mind you posting it in this thread though

I gave one---Love your enemy

To become strong, we must become weak---2 Cor 12:10
To save our life we must lose it.---Lk 9:24
To become wise we must become foolish---I Cor 3:18
One man can die for the sins of the world---Heb 10:14
God the Holy Spirit indwells every believer---Eph 1:13
God look on the inside for our obedience, not on our outward appearance.---I Sam 16:20

I don't know enough about some religions to say this is true, but I don't remember any religion having an omnipresent God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is also unique.

There are many more but this will give you plenty to chew on.

 

[omega2xx]

Like what?

Check msg 95 in this thread.

The apocalypse wouldn't be a thing if Jesus and Satan were besties again...

Punishing sin is not a sign that God did not love Satan. If God doesn't him, He canp[t punish any of us.

I'm saying that bloodlust could happen to deities too./QUOTE]

There is no blood lust in God.

Ah, but which side is telling the truth? People who worshipped Baal were killed by Yahweh's followers for just wanting some rain so their crops would grow.

Actually it was to find water to keep the animals alive, but they prophets of Baal were not killed for that. They were killed for braking the first commandment and spreading a false religion among God's people.

Yahweh, being the chaotic sea god from the Epic of Baal, just floods everything He doesn't like.
Sometimes the punishment for man's sins, is dramatic. If God had not caused the flood, things would have gotten worse. The final destination of those killed in the flood, was not changed.

Yeah, they aren't the nerds of their mythologies. Hephaestus is one example of a go-to for awesome machines.

If you want to put your faith in hephaestus, be my guest.

 

[Quintessence]

Correct me if I am wrong, but all of your points still take the base stance that they are right correct? That would of been the crux of what I was saying.

Yes, but again, I think it is very important to make a distinction between different ways of thinking one is right. I'm not clear on whether or not you've been doing that.

A few other things worth remembering about this, though. In many situations, so-called "rightness" is not important or not applicable, or applies very differently than the examples you seem to have been focusing on. For the elements of religions that are not about beliefs, talking about the "rightness" of them is often awkward. We generally don't frame our celebrations of holidays as being about "right" and "wrong," for example, and such ritual celebrations are a significant component of many religions.

The other thing is that people can and do go through periods of self-doubt or questioning. They may practice or follow a certain thing in spite of skepticism or uncertainty. For example, the first time you practice a ritual, you might be concerned about doing it "right" and not really believe it will accomplish what you want it to. But you do it anyway because that is how you learn and get better at it. You don't believe in it now, but you want to make it part of your life and practice.

As far as believing out of tradition, good point! This is another reason people believe. Usually once they begin to truly take their belief seriously they hold onto better reasons, or at least I would hope, but as a child I believed only out of tradition and what I was brought up in. I couldn't imagine an adult believing for such a seemingly bad reason.

I can. Then again, I also recognize that what I would call a "bad reason" is not necessarily so to other people. In many respects, it really isn't my place to judge someone else's reasons as good or bad. I should only be doing that for my own life, as others' lives is not my affair.

 

[Blackdog22]

I gave one---Love your enemy

To become strong, we must become weak---2 Cor 12:10
To save our life we must lose it.---Lk 9:24
To become wise we must become foolish---I Cor 3:18
One man can die for the sins of the world---Heb 10:14
God the Holy Spirit indwells every believer---Eph 1:13
God look on the inside for our obedience, not on our outward appearance.---I Sam 16:20

I don't know enough about some religions to say this is true, but I don't remember any religion having an omnipresent God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is also unique.

There are many more but this will give you plenty to chew on.

Most of these concepts were applied long before Christianity. You do know that Hinduism is the oldest religion that is still around today and had the concept of loving your enemy. To the rest, do you really think someone could write a book like Lord of the Rings, but the Bible would of been impossible? Humans are quite imaginitive, and have proven that throughout history. Nothing listed would of been impossible and even more bizarre and outside the box concepts have been written long before the bible.

To the end point, your just claiming uniqueness as a reason for why this is true. It adds nothing. Hinduism is also unique, that aspect doesn't make it correct or makes its gods real by default. This was one of my primary points. If the Trinity is true for being unique, then Muhammad is true for flying into heaven on a winged horse and Hinduism is true for having the most gods. Literally every religion has something unique about it. This is a point in noones court.

 

[omega2xx]

Most of these concepts were applied long before Christianity. You do know that Hinduism is the oldest religion that is still around today and had the concept of loving your enemy. To the rest, do you really think someone could write a book like Lord of the Rings, but the Bible would of been impossible? Humans are quite imaginitive, and have proven that throughout history. Nothing listed would of been impossible and even more bizarre and outside the box concepts have been written long before the bible.

You wont find what I posted in any other religion and Hinduism is not the oldest religion. Judaism is and you can't show me one written document of Hinduism that tells it s followers to love their enemy.

To the end point, your just claiming uniqueness as a reason for why this is true. It adds nothing. Hinduism is also unique, that aspect doesn't make it correct or makes its gods real by default.

If the writings are not found in other religions, then they are unique and must have come from God. Hinduism is not unique in that sense. Tell me something Hinduism teaches that is not in Christianity.

This was one of my primary points. If the Trinity is true for being unique, then Muhammad is true for flying into heaven on a winged horse and Hinduism is true for having the most gods. Literally every religion has something unique about it. This is a point in noones court.

The Trinity being true has nothing to do with the myths of other religions.

Wonderful. Tell me what is unique about Hinduism.

 

[Blackdog22]

You wont find what I posted in any other religion and Hinduism is not the oldest religion. Judaism is and you can't show me one written document of Hinduism that tells it s followers to love their enemy.



If the writings are not found in other religions, then they are unique and must have come from God. Hinduism is not unique in that sense. Tell me something Hinduism teaches that is not in Christianity.



The Trinity being true has nothing to do with the myths of other religions.

Wonderful. Tell me what is unique about Hinduism.

superior being does not render evil for evil; this is a maxim one should observe; the ornament of virtuous persons is their conduct. One should never harm the wicked or the good or even criminals meriting death. A noble soul will ever exercise compassion even towards those who enjoy injuring others or those of cruel deeds when they are actually committing them--for who is without fault?

17.Hinduism. Ramayana, Yuddha Kanda 115

Not to be rude but at this moment I have to assume you have no concept of what any religion teaches outside of Christianity. Your religion isn't special. It shares characteristics of many others and again, nothing you mentioned is impossible to come up with. It is actually so easy, its been done way before Christianity. Also note how you talk about the trinity, as if its true by default for being unique, and then call other religions "myths", quite hypocritical. I don't think you are interested in anything outside of your own christian construct.

To finish, your still using logic to say something unique makes it true by default. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is unique, that doesn't make it true by default because he isnt in other religions. How do you even mentally come to that conclusion I would love to know.

If you don't happen to own any books outside of the Bible, which im assuming is the case, here is a solid list of scriptures from other religions saying to love your enemy :

World Scripture - LOVE YOUR ENEMY