You're no Christian

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And here's something I'll bet you didn't know: Mormonism has considerably more in common with Catholicism than it does with Protestantism.

... and not all of it based on the shared experience of being persecuted by Protestants!

(Not sure what emoji to use here - we have no "this is meant as a joke but I don't want to look like I'm laughing at religious persecution" smilie)

 

[Sonny]

The text isn't a fantasy. Clearly you you have zero idea about nature, zero idea about God except what you parrot and have read. You start with yourself, you read a book, it determines your reality based on a whole fantasy structure that then determines your view of nature and god and any other kind if nonsense. It's actually profoundly unhealthy dis embodied nonsense. Religion and science are natures ***** not the other way around. Get off yourself and your destructive cartooning the text. Its, self serving self centered dysfunctional bs. Try breathing sometime.

Apparently, you are unable or incapable of refuting what I've said (I noticed you nor any other non-believer/atheist never replied to the fulfilled prophecies I offered. Kind of hard to refute clear evidence (facts), huh?) So, rather than learn the truth people tend to retort negatively- just like you did. Unfortunately, you exposed your 'soft underbelly' with that ridiculous remark.

See, folks, this is precisely why the truth/facts/evidence is so important in discussions of important issues (religion, politics). Otherwise, people get bent out of shape and say moronic things like David T. He knows nothing about me. BC he doesn't like what I say but can't defend his beliefs nor refute what I say about some 'churches' beliefs he gets all red faced and rants incoherently about that which he knows nothing of, my beliefs/views..

 

[Sonny]

Are you serious - the text you are alluding to (if taken in context) says the exact opposite of what you are suggesting - that's the very kind of reasoning that makes me want to declare that I am not a "Christian". Anyway, for any genuine would-be "Jesus-followers" out there here is the text in full with my emphasis:

But whatever you do - don't take my word for it - look it up and reason on it for yourself. And of course remember that you don't have to be a nominal Christian to follow the Golden Rule (neither for that matter was the idea of Jesus' originality) - but its a pretty good one to live by - and if Christians are not doing so, presumably Christ will disown them in the judgement regardless of what they call themselves.

LATE EDIT: The point being (since we seem to have gone significantly off-track in some cases into personal interpretations of what "Christian" might mean to individuals) that if your Church is NOT teaching you to follow "Christ's" teaching - namely, that the most important things are love of God and the doing of good to others (see scriptures cited above and in my previous posts and Matthew 22:37-40) then it (not necessarily its individual members) is NOT Christian. And if your Church IS teaching you to follow "Christ's" teaching then it (not necessarily its individual members) IS Christian.

Even later PS: Sonny asked earlier why I no longer call myself a Christian - partly because after many long, painstaking, prayerful and enlightening hours (years) of studying the Bible, I am convinced it is NOT the revealed word of God and partly because after even more years of searching I am yet to find a Christian Church that actually teaches that the "two greatest commandments" are really that important. I would love to be convinced otherwise on both counts, but I really can't see it happening.

Look, we're all in this together. We have only one world with life. And, we have written codes describing what a Christian is and isn't. Of course, there are Codes for every walk of life, Archaeology, Geology, Geography, History, etc. None of us would think a second about following those rules but we seem to think everybody is a Christian who says they are. No! Having that warm, fuzzy feeling isn't from God, even if it has cool whip and a cherry on top. There are real and dangerous false churches out there deceiving and destroying lives. As I said, I can 'say' I am the King/Queen of England. But am I? How do we know if I am or not? There are codes (rules, guidelines, standards) that are clear-cut and fool-proof. The same applies to Christianity. Just bc we like people from a false group doesn't make them or it right or Christian. We have to apply the standard no matter how hard or offensive it may be. If we speak against some group it is (again) bc they taught, printed and published their beliefs for us to read. We (me) aren't the bad guys for simply repeating their beliefs. They are for teaching them. How I wish that thinking would permeate our 'everyone is right or deserves a trophy' culture. It just isn't true...or right.

 

[Sonny]

I myself was a Christian for many years, then I realized that it kept me away from ever experiencing what we call God, I realized that God wasn't someone to worship, or someone who will judge me.

My inner realization was an experience that opened up my eyes, that is my inner eyes, in this experience I realized that we are all One with the Source, or Consciousness, we have given many names to this Source, and have made many belief systems we call religion.
Yes we are all One and religion to me personally only separates us from each other, "my religion is better than yours" mentality. I believe when we realize this truth, we then treat each other as ourselves, because if we are all One, then why would you hurt another, in that you would be hurting yourself, in this realization we wont need religion, because collectively we are that One Religion.

You seem to be advocating the 'everyone did what was right in their own eyes' philosophy. It reminds me of Flip Wilson saying (starting) 'The Devil made me do it' slogan. It was funny but wrong. We choose to listen to God or Satan. How can we know who is really directing our thoughts? Is it us or the world around us, the Devil or God? That is why God put His will/laws in a book.

The reason we talk to people is bc we love them. My parents spanked me when I deserved it. I thot they were the devil himself for doing that. But I earned what I got and they were only helping me to know right from wrong. It still hurt. telling people their church is wrong/false is love. If we who know the truth (have evidence to prove it) don't tell the truth to them, who will? Or, should we do nothing and let people keep driving down the road when we know the bridge is out down around the bend? This is where all of us are. JWs think they are saving souls. Mormons think they are saving souls. Christians think they are saving souls. Who really is? The one whose church doesn't have false revelations or failed prophecies (has fulfilled ones). If a church/group has ONE failed/false prophecy/revelation then, according to the Bible, they are not His, bc He knows everything about everything before there was anything. But these groups issue prophecies then make excuses for them not coming true. That, folks, is not the God of Christianity. I wish I could get that point firmly understood. And, this point isn't about which church is true. It's about knowing, as an absolute fact, which church isn't true. After that the true church is a lot easier to see.

 

[Sonny]

That sounds a lot more like a rationalization than an explanation.

It's actually a statement of Christian fact. People have the right to be wrong. But we are commanded to GO and help them see the light of Jesus' love and forgiveness. Sure, we get called some wrong and horrible names. But when a group can't defend its teachings or refute what we say about them they always resort to anger and name-calling. keep reading, you'll see who posts facts and who gets upset about those facts.

 

[Sonny]

[QUOTE="David1967]
[QUOTE="Sonny,] Actually, that was the passage I was thinking of, Mt. 7. It doesn't say never judge. Society must judge to have order. People must judge to have truth.

If I were to issue an edict, let's call it an 'extermination order' on towns full of men, women and little children but then I say I am God's only true church on earth, would I be? See, this is the approach we must have to both judge and state that a certain church/religion is false/cultic.

Btw, there is an American church that did just what I mentioned. Of course, those who were threatened tried for over 4 months, almost 5, to stop the mad ravings of this bunch and talk them out of this insane hatred. Alas! they wouldn't listen or back down so that state was forced to issue its own extermination order to bring them to their senses. But, you know what is the most egregious part of all of this is (to me, at least)? That crazed bunch issued that extermination order on all those people
1. Who had peacefully allowed them to move in and get settled. THEN, they went crazy on those who had always been living there. That is so mean- to bite the hand that was kind to you. And,
2. That bunch issued their extermination order on July 4th- OF ALL DAYS!! Shows what kind of leaders/people they really were/are, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]

Who was this bunch who issued the extermination order? I'm not familiar with this.

First, what is your religious persuasion? I don't want to offend anyone (the truth always does) but the truth doesn't care about feelings. It is the truth whether we agree with it or not. Try building a Skyscraper based off feelings of how it should be built. The Egyptians have a few examples of what happens when that is done.
That church is the Mormon church. But that is a prick in the finger compared to some of what they taught/did. if you want to know more of what that church's leaders taught, printed and published (how else would I know about them if not for them doing that?) I will provide it and the reference where YOU can find and read it for yourselves (don't ever take my word for anything. Always follow up with your own research- to keep me honest.).

 

[1robin]

That is a spot on post! Good job. I wish everyone thot that way. The good and bad churches would be known by all. Instead, the innocent, gullible and easily duped end up in some horrible churches. Even within my own religion, Christianity, there are some real nuts cases. Since I'm speaking of my own religion I assume I can say these things- Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller, ad infinitum, ad nausea. These frauds, like the cults, must be exposed. We help folks in and out of them when we expose them. *Explanation needed*- we expose a group by simply stating (repeating) what their own leaders taught, printed and published (how else would we know what they believe if they had not published it for us to see?). Doing that, as outrageous as some of their teachings/beliefs really were/are is offensive to lots of people. But, remember, we are only a messenger repeating their church's/leader's own 'words'.

Thanks Sonny and you nailed it. I agree with pretty much everything you stated. What group is it you work with to expose unchristian teaching? How do you go about making others aware of false teachers?

Let me add a note here. I have often wondered why Church's can so often become corrupted. The best conclusion I have come up with is that if Stan wanted to do the greatest damage possible that attacking and perverting Church's would be the best possible tactic. If he can compromise the Church then our own sinful natures will do the rest of his work for him. You do not have to bring darkness into a room, all you need to do is snuff out the light.

Just out of curiosity, which denomination (though imperfect) would you say that most closely matches what Christ intended his Church to be?

 

[Sonny]

John.6[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I'm sorry, but that is absurd. I think everyone will admit that no one ate Jesus' body- either before or after His death. It's called symbolic for a reason. Revelations is another book with a lot of symbolism. Some things are not literal. But, let's say ur right. Are you actually saying that Catholics, about a Billion today, have Jesus' body somewhere and are cutting tiny pieces off Him so the members can have a bite? How have they managed to keep His body and blood from going bad, especially before the 18th Century when no one knew how to preserve food by refrigeration? Did that church really salt Him good and hard to keep Him fresh? How about His blood? How did they keep it 'fresh'?

Matt.16

[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall beloosed in heaven."
Matt.18[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Now, why would God give this power of forgiveness to the apostles only to have it stop when they all passed away?

The 12 Apostles- and a few others- were given these powers to show that Christianity was true. BC even then there were frauds- the Bible speaks of them. Since you think like that, why doesn't that church heal the sick and suffering, raise the dead, issue prophecies that come true? See, you took one point and made it a doctrine. The only way that is true is if that church can and does everything the Apostles did. And, those powers/Apostles ended with their deaths. There is no sign their powers were handed down thru the millennia since then. Some think so but they are mistaken.

And it is really not the priest who forgives the sins, according to Catholic theology, but God. The priest is merely the conduit, but there are other ways in which sins can be forgiven.

Then why not simply go straight to God? That is what Jesus/Apostles taught. There are no more barriers between man and God. We now, thanks to Jesus, have direct access to God's Throne. maybe that church should teach the Bible properly.

Matt.7

[1] "Judge not, that you be not judged.

Right. Read it again, please. It doesn't say we can't, it says we must have the proof/truth (to keep it short) before we judge others.

 

[Sonny]

Thanks Sonny and you nailed it. I agree with pretty much everything you stated. What group is it you work with to expose unchristian teaching? How do you go about making others aware of false teachers?

When I lived in St. George, Utah there was a group of men who gathered to study and witness, house-house, to... whomever (although, most were LDS and that was our reason for going, primarily). We would encounter everything from a Welcome, Come on in to I have my own religion or I have a testimony that 'my' church is true. The best way we found was to ask them questions and provide answers from the Bible. While they 'say' they believe the Bible, they don't really- ex. Christianity teaches there is one God and Jesus is Him incarnate. They teach there could be Trillions of God and men may become Gods with their own...'Universe'. Regardless of which religion is the true one (Christian or Mormon), the fact is the LDS are not Christian. if they were all of their beliefs would be in line with the Bible- a book they trashed ad nauseum in the days of their early leaders.

Let me add a note here. I have often wondered why Church's can so often become corrupted. The best conclusion I have come up with is that if Stan wanted to do the greatest damage possible that attacking and perverting Church's would be the best possible tactic. If he can compromise the Church then our own sinful natures will do the rest of his work for him. You do not have to bring darkness into a room, all you need to do is snuff out the light.

Absolutely! And, it only takes one disgruntled member to wreak havoc on an otherwise good church.

Just out of curiosity, which denomination (though imperfect) would you say that most closely matches what Christ intended his Church to be?

That's tough. I think most try very hard to be 'Christ-like'. As with all of life mistakes are made. Sometimes people run with them and hurt that church body. And all churches have the potential, if not experienced such things already. personally, I like the Southern Baptist. The one we attended tried to stay within the Bible's teachings. We had a way to question what was being taught. One of our Mottos was: Never contradict clear Scripture (I still have it on a sticker on my old Bible). If a church focuses on Jesus, and not on men (leaders), they are on the right road.

 

[Sonny]

So God made then imperfect? You really need to make up your mind here.

Not gonna get into a pissing contest with you over things you nit-pic. I explained it and you ignored or rejected it. But, it isn't my mind, it's the Bible's teachings. Being perfect does not, in any way, equate to a mindless robot unable or incapable of making logical, rational, self-serving or bad decisions.

 

[Sonny]

IOW, it's only convincing once you've convinced yourself that it's true.

No, it convinced me. It'll convince you, too, if you take enough time to research its history and read what it says. There is no mistaking the Bible's veracity. Those who skim thru it never understand it enough to accept it. To each his own, I guess.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not gonna get into a pissing contest with you over things you nit-pic. I explained it and you ignored or rejected it. But, it isn't my mine, it's the Bible's teachings.

You contradicted yourself when you explained it, so you haven't really answred anything.

Being perfect does not, in any way, equate to a mindless robot unable or incapable of making logical, rational, self-serving or bad decisions.

It does mean that they won't make bad decisions. A perfect being has no imperfections. That's what "perfect" means.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it convinced me. It'll convince you, too, if you take enough time to research its history and read what it says.

What makes you think I haven't?

There is no mistaking the Bible's veracity. Those who skim thru it never understand it enough to accept it. To each his own, I guess.

I don't think you have the first clue about what sort of investigations I've done.

 

[Sonny]

Thanks for calling that to my attention! I need to start proofreading my posts more carefully. I have since fixed the post.

I'd say that, more than likely, it's the way others report on them that makes them sound strange. For example, if I were to post something to the effect that "Catholics practice cannibalism," that would shock and disgust anyone who doesn't understand the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. With a careful choice of words and a few out-of-context quote from "unofficial" Catholic sources, I could make a convincing argument for my claim. No matter how effectively I were to present my case, however, any Catholic would be able to see that I was intentionally misleading unsuspecting readers and trying to make Catholicism sound strange and even, perhaps, depraved.

One would have to be fairly depraved, and knowledgeable to do that. I hope no one does such just to denigrate someone else or their church. I tend to think that is wrong.

I think you'd agree that if you wanted to really come to understand Judaism, you would find a lifelong Jew to be a better source of information than a radical Muslim who would like nothing more than to have you hate the Jewish faith as much as he does. Of course, the reverse is also true.

Unfortunately, this is not always true- maybe, rarely true. You see, people in cults/false religions don't know they are in one. Asking them questions, then, is often pointless. Most have never studied their own beliefs bc mom and dad told them it was true or a good friend invited them to join the church and they didn't know its history or early doctrines or the character of its founders/leaders. Now, if they do know all about their church they are either totally brainwashed, deluded or they can prove it is true with, say, fulfilled prophecies or that its doctrines have always been in line with the Bible. There really isn't many, if any, other ways to prove a church true. sadly but happily, all churches, today, can be proved to be true (inline with Bible-if they profess to be Christian) or false. There aren't any middle-of-the-road churches, they are either true or false.

Thank you for that comment. I personally believe that God cares more about how we live our lives than He cares if we could score 100% on a multiple-choice test regarding Christian doctrines. Of course, He wants us to believe what is "true," and not be misled by what is not, but He wants most of all for us to love and serve Him by loving and serving one another. Some people seem to believe that "the end justifies the means" when trying to "save souls." I don't. I do not believe it's necessary to undercut another person’s position to make my position look good. People who have to resort to doing that don't have much of a position themselves, and it does not please God when He sees us intentionally spreading false information about other people's beliefs.

Are you saying or implying that those who tell the truth about other churches that portrays that church as evil, false or man-made are, themselves, bad people? It sounds like you are. Truth has always been a main force in out world. I can't think of anything that was built and survived that was built on any other foundation. It isn't mean, wrong or bad to inform others they are wrong. if that were true then the Mormon church, by that alone, would be false bc it teaches 'that all other creeds are an abomination in the eyes of God'. Talk about hate speech. Unless it is the 'only true church on earth that I, the Lord, am well pleased with'. In that case it wouldn't be hate, it would be an act of love. That road goes both ways, though. The same can be applied to those who say the same about the LDS church. So, who is the hater, really, the LDS for saying such a mean thing or the others who say the same about the LDS? Again, none of us can have it both ways. If we say things about others, as JS certainly did, then don't get upset when others say it about him/LDS. After all, JS threw the first stone with that remark.
Added- It all comes down to evidence (if one is unwilling to accept the Bible as the standard for Christianity, right and wrong). What does the evidence say? Are those who attack the LDS wrong or do they have evidence to show the LDS is? Are the LDS wrong or do they have evidence to prove the others are? Get the facts and you'll know the truth.
BTW, I do not condone those who stand outside of a church and protest while carrying signs. It doesn't serve the purpose of Christ- to save souls. if it did it would be fine. But it doesn't. it causes either fear or anger and often the feeling that we are right bc we are being persecuted- which, in point of fact it doesn't mean that at all.

 

[Sonny]

You cannot possibly offend me, so relax. What you call setup, I call motivation to think.

So, you agree that Christians should not listen to Paul? For I cannot imagine a woman pastor being quite in church. So, you should agree that Paul was wrong, in at least one case.

Everything that happens in nature is natural, by definition. Nature does not carry any moral tag. Unless you believe that homosexuality is supernatural.

So, why don't I observe rallies against marriages between Christians and not Christians, or between adulterers, while I observe rallies against marriages between gays? I thought adultery was a sin, too.

Ciao

- viole

Good points, all. Paul was a human. While I agree with him I know he made a mistake or two. I have discussed this with two women who were pastors. I clearly demonstrated from the Bible that they should not be pastors but agreed that women have a big role in the church. I think it is fine for women Evangelists but not pastors. I hope I didn't say otherwise earlier. if I did it was by mistake- fingers outran brain.
Bc people can be saved if they aren't Christian, even tho the Bible says not to go there bc of possible/probable hardships later on in marriage. The Bible is specific on certain issues, homosexuality is one of them. But don't forget that God can save anyone no matter what they've done or where they've been. Sin does not disqualify anyone from being saved- no matter the sin, else no one would ever be saved.

 

[David1967]

For me, the best way to discuss God is to ask them questions.

Me too.

I have found, sadly, that most people don't know much about their church or belief system. They take things at face value when someone they know or trust tells them it is true.

Undeniably true.

This is why there are so many cults and false religions.

I think we need to be extremely careful about using the terms "cult", or "false religion". Simply because its difficult to inspire productive dialogue if we start off with terms like this.

Most people want to talk but few want to answer questions that paints their church in a bad light, even when it is true. Me?

Also true.

Me? I like to follow the facts- whatever they say, wherever they lead. It must be verifiable evidence. I am a firm believer in truth. I never back up or back down when I am right. Show me I'm not right and I change.

Great attitude! You and I can talk.

 

[Sonny]

Did you read my response in #215 that includes a verse on this?

To expand up on this, let me just say that what the priest is doing is forgiving on behalf of the community, but it is the view of the church that it is only God that can forgive sins in heaven. Much like I can forgive you of a sin against me, or vice-versa, the apostles were told by Jesus that they had the same authority in regards to forgiveness within the church itself.

Humans cannot 'forgive' sins, only God can do that. For doing/saying that very thing the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus. I can forgive a trespass from someone but only God deals with sin and its consequences and forgiveness, according to the Bible.

 

[Sonny]

You contradicted yourself when you explained it, so you haven't really answred anything.


It does mean that they won't make bad decisions. A perfect being has no imperfections. That's what "perfect" means.

I didn't, actually.
I've never met a perfect person. Have you? But I have read how they chose to stop being perfect. The same applies to Satan (Lucifer) and, maybe, a hundred million angels. They were perfect but chose to sin. They went from heaven to hell.

 

[David1967]

First, what is your religious persuasion? I don't want to offend anyone

Don't worry about offending me. My religious persuasion is Christian . raised Baptist, but best defined by my signature, "A work in progress".

 

[Katzpur]

Are you saying or implying that those who tell the truth about other churches that portrays that church as evil, false or man-made are, themselves, bad people? It sounds like you are. Truth has always been a main force in out world. I can't think of anything that was built and survived that was built on any other foundation. It isn't mean, wrong or bad to inform others they are wrong. if that were true then the Mormon church, by that alone, would be false bc it teaches 'that all other creeds are an abomination in the eyes of God'. Talk about hate speech. Unless it is the 'only true church on earth that I, the Lord, am well pleased with'. In that case it wouldn't be hate, it would be an act of love. That road goes both ways, though. The same can be applied to those who say the same about the LDS church. So, who is the hater, really, the LDS for saying such a mean thing or the others who say the same about the LDS? Again, none of us can have it both ways. If we say things about others, as JS certainly did, then don't get upset when others say it about him/LDS. After all, JS threw the first stone with that remark.

Sonny, I have absolutely nothing to say to you. Trying to talk to you is a complete waste of my time. I have not one shred of respect for you as a person, as you have shown your true colors again and again and again. You might as well not even respond to my posts, as I certainly won't be responding to yours. Anything I have to say will be addressed to others on this forum -- not to you. I believe I have made my position perfectly clear.