You're no Christian

[Sonny]

Like Jesus never said to go make people into disciples for him?

Uhhh, He did say that. And the implication is throughout the NT and some places in OT.
Go into all the world and preach the gospel (Mt 28:19/20; Mk 16:15/16; Lk 15:10; 19:10; 24:47; Jn 15:8,27; 17:20; 20:21-23; Heb 7:25).

 

[Sonny]

Sonny, may I ask what denominational background you come from? Not a trick question, just curious.

Baptist. Growing up I went to different denoms- Baptist, Christian, Holy Roller (haha), Catholic and some of those break-a-way non-denoms. I tend to side with Baptists today. But for no reason other than I knew a bunch of them.

 

[Sonny]

Catholic churches ARE Christian churches.

I agree but with some aberrant teachings. A couple of which are blasphemous. No offense intended (noi) but the truth must be stated regardless of how it affects others.

 

[Sonny]

You did. Or rather, you implied it. You said that they were perfect when they chose to sin; the implication is that, in this situation, choosing to sin was a perfect act.

Just bc A&E were perfect doesn't mean God made them Robots. He gave them free will and Eve used it freely to disobey God. When God says don't do something it doesn't mean that He won't let/allow us to do it. He will. That is free will in action. But there are consequences. We have told our kids since they were 3 or 4 that everything they say, think or do (Step one) has a hundred more steps (consequences) coming bc of it, whether good or bad.

And did God know how Satan would choose before he created him?

Yes, he did. But, He also gave His angels free will. Now, after the War in heaven, Christianity believes, God's angels no longer have a choice. They made theirs at war. They have been sealed forever. Humans get to make ours here and now. In Heaven there are no more choices like that to make. We are sealed forever by our choice to serve god until death.

 

[Sonny]

Can you not see the difference between scripture and the whole Bible?

Not sure I get ur meaning. Please, explain. To help you remember, I said this (that caused you to say that),
That is the exact kind of thinking the cults and false churches use to get started and to say they are Christians. The Bible is the standard. If one opposes the Bible one is not a Christian, by definition even.

 

[Valerian]

You goofed up your formatting in your post to me, fyi.

Actually, I will take your word on all you said, but there are definitely some Mormon dogmas or doctrines that are very alien to Catholic and most Protestant dogmas or doctrines. Maybe you can tell me what those are in bullet points? Because I recall when others report on them they sound very strange.

Now having said that, I myself find Mormons to be very honorable people and very god-like in their practices and ways of helping others. My God am I sure will not let that go unnoticed.

 

[Sonny]

Twelve is the age of accountability because Jesus was twelve when he spoke wisely to the Jewish leaders is ridiculous! You do know that wisdom and faith are not the same? Do you?

I didn't make this stuff up out of thin air. This is what Christianity teaches. However, I will say Jesus was considerably more mature at 12 than any of us after college and 80 years of life. He was Almighty God in the flesh (incarnate). Also, this is a debatable issue. The Mormons say the age of accountability (when a person is old enuff to know what sin is) is 8.

 

[David1967]

Baptist. Growing up I went to different denoms- Baptist, Christian, Holy Roller (haha), Catholic and some of those break-a-way non-denoms. I tend to side with Baptists today. But for no reason other than I knew a bunch of them.

Thanks Sonny. I too was brought up Baptist and still attend. I'm not completely on board with all their teachings but they are at least tolerant of my annoying questions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree but with some aberrant teachings. A couple of which are blasphemous.

Then it fits right in. Every church teaches things that are considered blasphemous by some other group of Christians.

 

[Sonny]

I think that I can call it a fact that faith does not come with wisdom and wisdom does not come with faith.
A person faithful is ready to get baptized if he is willing. Wisdom does not make a person ready for baptism. Wisdom comes from the mind. Faith is out of the heart.

True. The Bible says as much when it says that those of the world are wiser, in their day, than are Christians. We call that 'worldly wisdom' and it is true. When I went west as a young man and met some California dudes (snicker, snicker) they taught me things I had never even heard of, let alone seen/done. So, ur right. But, nonetheless, Jesus was 12 speaking to the Jewish leaders and asking them questions about Jewish law. That is why we say 12 is the age. No ulterior motives in that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just bc A&E were perfect doesn't mean God made them Robots. He gave them free will and Eve used it freely to disobey God.

So God made then imperfect? You really need to make up your mind here.

 

[Sonny]

Heh... I've never found much wisdom in faith, myself.

I have. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. But to us, who are being saved, it is the power of God

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. But to us, who are being saved, it is the power of God

IOW, it's only convincing once you've convinced yourself that it's true.

 

[Sonny]

Let's make a practical, real life, example.

In my native country, Sweden, the few Christians left have quite a few female pastors, whose job requires not to be silent in church obviously, and happily marry gays and Atheist/Christian couples.

Are they really Christian?

If not, what Christian tenet do they violate?

Ciao

- viole

No offense, but this sounds like a setup. But, I'll bite- in the effort to set the biblical record straight.
Paul, I think the greatest Apostle, said women ought to be silent in church. He goes on to say bc a woman was the first to be tempted by Satan and give in. To that I agree with Paul. But, I'm not sure it is a sin for a woman to be pastor or an Evangelist bc many women had prominent positions thru out the Bible.
On the homosexual issue. That is unnatural and wrong (sin). Both the Old and New Testaments make that point clear. The Bible also tells Christians not to be unequally yoked- don't marry outside your faith. I've seen it work and I've seen folks make it last but never make it work- this was an LDS man/Christian lady and both already had teenage kids taught their respective beliefs.
As a side note, the Bible is very clear that Christians are not to be a part of interfaith groups- 'what has God to do with the Devil'.

 

[Sonny]

You goofed up your formatting in your post to me, fyi.

Actually, I will take your word on all you said, but there are definitely some Mormon dogmas or doctrines that are very alien to Catholic and most Protestant dogmas or doctrines. Maybe you can tell me what those are in bullet points? Because I recall when others report on them they sound very strange.

Now having said that, I myself find Mormons to be very honorable people and very god-like in their practices and ways of helping others. My God am I sure will not let that go unnoticed.

There are, indeed, vast differences between the LDS belief system and that of Christianity. I was in a group once that researched the LDS doctrines and its history- the early/founding ones. It would be wrong of me to say that the Mormon church IS a Christian church. I know more about the LDS, thru that group of Christian men, than 99.5% of all LDS in their history have known (history, if one studies it closely, is always 20/20). NOI

 

[Sonny]

Thanks Sonny. I too was brought up Baptist and still attend. I'm not completely on board with all their teachings but they are at least tolerant of my annoying questions.

Bc of my physical issues I rarely make it to church. I'd like to go but can't.
They used to tell me that I ask too many questions. If I am going to serve God then I want to know which church/religion has the real God. I studied and made my decision based on 20 plus years of research, Christianity. Some religions are bizarre to me.

 

[Katzpur]

You goofed up your formatting in your post to me, fyi.

Thanks for calling that to my attention! I need to start proofreading my posts more carefully. I have since fixed the post.

Actually, I will take your word on all you said, but there are definitely some Mormon dogmas or doctrines that are very alien to Catholic and most Protestant dogmas or doctrines. Maybe you can tell me what those are in bullet points? Because I recall when others report on them they sound very strange.

I'd say that, more than likely, it's the way others report on them that makes them sound strange. For example, if I were to post something to the effect that "Catholics practice cannibalism," that would shock and disgust anyone who doesn't understand the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. With a careful choice of words and a few out-of-context quote from "unofficial" Catholic sources, I could make a convincing argument for my claim. No matter how effectively I were to present my case, however, any Catholic would be able to see that I was intentionally misleading unsuspecting readers and trying to make Catholicism sound strange and even, perhaps, depraved.

It's the same with Mormon doctrines. I could certainly list a number of LDS doctrines that Catholics and Protestants take issue with, but I think that if I were to do so in this particular thread, it might end up turning the thread into a discussion on Mormonism to the exclusion of pretty much all other Christian denominations. If, however, you would like clarification on any doctrine you've been told Mormons believe, I'd be happy to oblige. And I think that you'd find that, when correctly understood, Mormon doctrines are no more "strange" than the doctrines of mainstream Christianity. When studying a religion other than your own, you just have to know which sources to trust. I think you'd agree that if you wanted to really come to understand Judaism, you would find a lifelong Jew to be a better source of information than a radical Muslim who would like nothing more than to have you hate the Jewish faith as much as he does. Of course, the reverse is also true.

Now having said that, I myself find Mormons to be very honorable people and very god-like in their practices and ways of helping others. My God am I sure will not let that go unnoticed.

Thank you for that comment. I personally believe that God cares more about how we live our lives than He cares if we could score 100% on a multiple-choice test regarding Christian doctrines. Of course, He wants us to believe what is "true," and not be misled by what is not, but He wants most of all for us to love and serve Him by loving and serving one another. Some people seem to believe that "the end justifies the means" when trying to "save souls." I don't. I do not believe it's necessary to undercut another person’s position to make my position look good. People who have to resort to doing that don't have much of a position themselves, and it does not please God when He sees us intentionally spreading false information about other people's beliefs.

 

[viole]

No offense, but this sounds like a setup. But, I'll bite- in the effort to set the biblical record straight.
Paul, I think the greatest Apostle, said women ought to be silent in church. He goes on to say bc a woman was the first to be tempted by Satan and give in. To that I agree with Paul. But, I'm not sure it is a sin for a woman to be pastor or an Evangelist bc many women had prominent positions thru out the Bible.
On the homosexual issue. That is unnatural and wrong (sin). Both the Old and New Testaments make that point clear. The Bible also tells Christians not to be unequally yoked- don't marry outside your faith. I've seen it work and I've seen folks make it last but never make it work- this was an LDS man/Christian lady and both already had teenage kids taught their respective beliefs.
As a side note, the Bible is very clear that Christians are not to be a part of interfaith groups- 'what has God to do with the Devil'.

You cannot possibly offend me, so relax. What you call setup, I call motivation to think.

So, you agree that Christians should not listen to Paul? For I cannot imagine a woman pastor being quite in church. So, you should agree that Paul was wrong, in at least one case.

Everything that happens in nature is natural, by definition. Nature does not carry any moral tag. Unless you believe that homosexuality is supernatural.

So, why don't I observe rallies against marriages between Christians and not Christians, or between adulterers, while I observe rallies against marriages between gays? I thought adultery was a sin, too.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sonny]

Then it fits right in. Every church teaches things that are considered blasphemous by some other group of Christians.

Well, maybe strange but not blasphemous. For ex. snake handling and speaking in tongues (been to latter, scared of former- haha). Catholics teach that mere mortal men, chosen by other mere mortal men, can 'absolve' people of their sins. If absolve means what I think it does (forgive) then that is heresy and blasphemous. And, if that was true, what was the point of Jesus coming, being tortured and hanged on a cross and dying a horrible death for? He came to be a High Priest forever in order to be THE mediator between God and man. Every person on earth, Thanks to what Jesus did, can go straight to the Father, in Jesus' name, for forgiveness and to confess and ask of God. The Catholics put a road block between God and man by saying we, men, can forgive you. That is nowhere found in the Bible.

 

[metis]

The Catholics put a road block between God and man by saying we, men, can forgive you. That is nowhere found in the Bible.

Did you read my response in #215 that includes a verse on this?

To expand up on this, let me just say that what the priest is doing is forgiving on behalf of the community, but it is the view of the church that it is only God that can forgive sins in heaven. Much like I can forgive you of a sin against me, or vice-versa, the apostles were told by Jesus that they had the same authority in regards to forgiveness within the church itself.