Conviction and punishment for adultery/fornication in Islam.

[Smart_Guy]

Hello guys.

Note:
Please remember that this is not a debate section. You're welcome to ask question and make respectful remarks (and everything else within the rules), however. Please also stay on topic as much as possible.

I'd like to speak of, discuss and share five points about convicting the adultery act in Islam. Those five are:
1- Requirement for adultery punishment convection.
2- Different punishments for adultery.
3- My view about stoning.
4- Personal comments.
5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.

Okay, let's get started.

1- Requirements for punishment convection:
* The adulterer should be a pubescent adult, in their full mental power, free (not slave), did it by choice, and knowing of the prohibition, and there should be no doubt or suspicion in the occurrence. All these are basic requirements typically required for every other punishment applications.
* Having the glans of the male genitalia fully penetrating the female genitalia.
* Having no doubt, as mentioned in the first requirement, is very important, and examples include having the previous requirement mentioned above done by a man/woman confusing the woman/man with their spouse. This is possible to happen and other now-unknown doubts/suspicions could take place too. Any molecule of doubt and there should be no punishment.
* Confirmation of the occurrence of adultery, and that includes:
- Confession. And that is done that the suspect themselves confess committed adultery and insisting on it until the punishment is performed. Any pulling back at any moment, even right before that means there will be no adultery punishment and it will be included in the doubt part.
- Having the statement of adultery occurrence of four adult eyewitness Muslim men with no bad history or mental problems. Witnessing should cover clearly visibly and undoubtedly seeing the glans of the male genitalia fully penetrating the female genitalia, which is in my opinion almost impossible since Muslims are required to stop what they see wrong if they can. I'll talk about this in my personal comments below.
- Some views include proving it by logic, including scientific means, but I'm really not sure if could be included under suspicion. Video recording, however, could very well be included under the doubtfulness part due to video editing technologies these days.

2- Different punishments for adultery:
Adultery has two punishments:
1- 100 lashes.
2- Stoning, which seems to be controversial at some point. Stoning, however, has an extra requirement, and it is that the adulterers should have already had the legal allowed Islamic sexual intercourse described as the full penetration of the glans of the male genitalia in the female genitalia while being in a legal current or previous marriage. I believe stoning is not abrogated/superseded and it's not valid anymore.

3- My view about stoning:
I personally don't believe stoning is now a valid punishment at this very moment for one simple reason. It is that the Quran has a general punishment for adultery that does not mention stoning, and it is known that Quran is the first source of rules/laws in Islam. I know that in the time of the Prophet stoning took place (although only by confession and never by witnesses or suspecting, and I'll talk about this later), but I cannot find any proof that (this) those stoning(s) took place happened before or after the revealing of the subject Quranic verse. The Quranic verse generalized the punishment for all adulterers, and that would abrogate/supersede stoning for not including it, which was actually borrowed from previous Abrahamic religions as Islam is believed to be their continuation by Muslims and their laws/rules should be followed as long as Islam does not abrogate/supersede them. I still see there is a possibility that stoning is still valid, but I personally hope, taking the leniency approach, that my view is the right one.

4- Personal comments:
If we look at the requirements above, we see that they are strict and clear cut. I honestly feel that all adultery punishments we hear of around the world don't follow those rules well, and if a molecule is missed of the rules, it is all over, no punishment it there. It is sad to see that convicts get stoned for simply suspecting them. I honestly see that some of the requirements above are extremely difficult to meet, specially the one that involves witnessing the penetration by four men. I mean, first, Islam orders to stop such acts when seen as long as one can do it, either physically or verbally. And of course if under Islamic law one sees adultery they would at least yell at them and the suspect would of course run around like crazy for knowing the punishment. So it is extremely difficult to watch the suspects silently until they make the penetration. Second, and in addition to the first, it is extremely difficult to go and find three other men to watch along, let alone only one person ignoring the first point to watch it in full and clearly? Wait, how close would one get to clearly see the penetration? I mean, this in not porn movie to watch like that!!! When Islam was at its best, adultery had punishment only by confession. These days we unfortunately hear of adultery convictions for simple suspicions. That's really sad

5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.
It is believed that adultery was/is prohibited in Judaism and Christianity before Islam and that at first Islam borrowed stoning from them. I'd like to hear of this from Jewish and Christian members of RF, as well as how is the case with other religions. How is it in Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, and other religions? Is adultery/fornication allowed or forbidden? Sharing in this regard is highly appreciated. It would be educational as well. Other Islamic views are welcomed as well.

Your vote is highly appreciated, and it could help making other similar threads.

Thank you for reading, and sorry for such a huge thread!

 

[LuisDantas]

5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.
It is believed that adultery was/is prohibited in Judaism and Christianity before Islam and that at first Islam borrowed stoning from them. I'd like to hear of this from Jewish and Christian members of RF, as well as how is the case with other religions. How is it in Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, and other religions? Is adultery/fornication allowed or forbidden?

In Buddhism, it is neither. We don't really think in terms very comparable to Halal / Haram in Buddhism.

Instead, we are encouraged to learn what are the likely consequences of our choices and actions and to decide how convenient they might turn out to be or to fail to be.

As it turns out, adultery and fornication are among the relatively few behaviors that do clearly fit in the scope of Sila (discipline) in Buddhism. They are by definition unwise behavior aimed to the unethical satisfaction of the senses, and therefore something that should be avoided and healed.

That does not really mean forbidding them. Forbiddance breeds anxiety and unnecessary conflict, and those are destructive consequences. Instead, we are expected to honestly gauge the significance of our actions and accept what leads to healthy consequences.

In a very real way, we learn to convince ourselves to behave better than what our immediate gratification might lead us to.

A part of it is making mistakes and accepting that we owe it to ourselves, to those that we love and even to those that hate us to learn and do better. Generally speaking, our belief in interconnected destinies leads us to think in somewhat unpersonal terms.

Another relevant aspect is the ability to consider specific situations. There is room and at least potentially the encouragement to avoid general, blanket rules about what is "proper" and instead pursue careful consideration of what is in fact healthy, acceptable and harmful for specific people and specific situations. So it is not necessarily wrong if, say, a couple is honest with each other while both being sexually promiscous. Likewise, it may be very unhealthy for a couple to live "by the book" if there is not enough warmth and mutual respect among them.

 

[Smart_Guy]

In Buddhism, it is neither. We don't really think in terms very comparable to Halal / Haram in Buddhism.

Instead, we are encouraged to learn what are the likely consequences of our choices and actions and to decide how convenient they might turn out to be or to fail to be.

As it turns out, adultery and fornication are among the relatively few behaviors that do clearly fit in the scope of Sila (discipline) in Buddhism. They are by definition unwise behavior aimed to the unethical satisfaction of the senses, and therefore something that should be avoided and healed.

That does not really mean forbidding them. Forbiddance breeds anxiety and unnecessary conflict, and those are destructive consequences. Instead, we are expected to honestly gauge the significance of our actions and accept what leads to healthy consequences.

In a very real way, we learn to convince ourselves to behave better than what our immediate gratification might lead us to.

A part of it is making mistakes and accepting that we owe it to ourselves, to those that we love and even to those that hate us to learn and do better. Generally speaking, our belief in interconnected destinies leads us to think in somewhat unpersonal terms.

Another relevant aspect is the ability to consider specific situations. There is room and at least potentially the encouragement to avoid general, blanket rules about what is "proper" and instead pursue careful consideration of what is in fact healthy, acceptable and harmful for specific people and specific situations. So it is not necessarily wrong if, say, a couple is honest with each other while both being sexually promiscous. Likewise, it may be very unhealthy for a couple to live "by the book" if there is not enough warmth and mutual respect among them.

If it does not really forbid them, does that mean that in Buddhism they are allowed in the default position?

 

[LuisDantas]

If it does not really forbid them, does that mean that in Buddhism they are allowed in the default position?

Sort of. But it is not really a matter of being allowed, even by default.

We are responsible for what we do, even when we do not have the means to predict the consequences. Our ethical duties are no less real for that.

 

[Kirran]

I've seen explanations by an imam, Daiyee Abdullah, that basically these kinds of punishments for adultery (as well as homosexuality etc) were taken into early Islam from Judaism and Christianity, hence using their respective punishments of stoning and burning.

 

[Onyx]

5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.
It is believed that adultery was/is prohibited in Judaism and Christianity before Islam and that at first Islam borrowed stoning from them. I'd like to hear of this from Jewish and Christian members of RF, as well as how is the case with other religions. How is it in Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, and other religions? Is adultery/fornication allowed or forbidden? Sharing in this regard is highly appreciated. It would be educational as well. Other Islamic views are welcomed as well.

Before giving my opinion I'll define "adultery" as simply cheating on whoever you are currently with. (Legally married or not.)

Some members of "left-hand path" religions might get married and be completely faithful, while others might allow "adulterous" actions. The latter approach is more risky, and therefore requires greater communication and approval of all parties involved.

My personal choice has always been to remain faithful to my partners. There can be inherent "punishments" in not doing so, such as losing someone you didn't really want to lose. Or getting into legal trouble if you're actually legally married.

One must be able to accept the consequences of their actions and plan accordingly.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I've seen explanations by an imam, Daiyee Abdullah, that basically these kinds of punishments for adultery (as well as homosexuality etc) were taken into early Islam from Judaism and Christianity, hence using their respective punishments of stoning and burning.

Yeah, and I believe they got superseded/abrogated later on. Other than what I believe that stoning is not valid anymore in Islam, Prophet Muhammad also did order people to never use fire in punishment as he said "no one tortures with fire except the God of fire". He actually said it to stop people from going to use fire to punish, and now it is considered forbidden (at least by Saudi views) unless it is for medical use, and even then, it is told to keep it as a last resort. That's a good example of it.

I'm too lazy to watch the video. Does it talk about adultery/fornication too?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Before giving my opinion I'll define "adultery" as simply cheating on whoever you are currently with. (Legally married or not.)

Some members of "left-hand path" religions might get married and be completely faithful, while others might allow "adulterous" actions. The latter approach is more risky, and therefore requires greater communication and approval of all parties involved.

My personal choice has always been to remain faithful to my partners. There can be inherent "punishments" in not doing so, such as losing someone you didn't really want to lose. Or getting into legal trouble if you're actually legally married.

One must be able to accept the consequences of their actions and plan accordingly.

Very well put. Islam actually does it as in intent to protect community, namely dignity, children, inheritance and legacies. There is so much to say about that, but this is not the right place for it and should be left for another place and time. It is not really there just to oppress people from having their fun.

By religious definition, and possibly in Arabic language, adultery and fornication are the same as described in the OP. The differences is in marital status and its relations.

 

[Tumah]

It is believed that adultery was/is prohibited in Judaism and Christianity before Islam and that at first Islam borrowed stoning from them. I'd like to hear of this from Jewish and Christian members of RF

Adultery (specifically any man with a married woman) is prohibited in Judaism. The punishment is choking for both.
The process:
- Two or more witnesses (or a person in front of two or more witnesses) - who are capable of testifying as a group (for instance relatives to any party are prohibited from testifying) have to warn the defendants within about three seconds of their performing the act that it is prohibited. If I recall correctly, they also have to warn them that the punishment is death and the type of punishment as well.
- The defendants have to acknowledge the warning. The man has to be 13 and up and the woman 12 and up.
- Confessions are limited and at most only helpful in prohibiting the defendants from ever marrying each other and requiring the women to get a divorce from her current husband.
- The witnesses have to see the act themselves. Penetration of the glans in either of the two areas there on the woman is enough for a guilty verdict.
- The Great Sanhedrin has to be sitting on the Temple mount.
- The court to which the witnesses go should be comprised of 23 judges (unless its a king or the first pass was a deadlock) with a minimum of 13 and maximum of 22, giving a death verdict. In the event that the majority is only by one in either direction, two more judged are added until a majority of two is reached or they hit 71 judges.
- The witnesses are required to go to the court. The judges will question them about: which year in the Jubilee, year in the Sabbatical, month, date, day, hour and place and other questions about the testimony.
- When they're convicted, they're gotten drunk, then they're made to stand in a pile of manure up to their knees. The executioners take a long hard cloth and place it within a long soft cloth. They wrap it around the person's neck and each executioner takes a side and pulls until they die. I believe the executioners are supposed to be the original witnesses.

I think I got everything, but I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something or am mistaken about something.

 

[David1967]

To my knowledge, stoning was never advocated by Jesus. In fact when a woman accused of adultery was brought before Him with the trick question of what to do with her, He replied "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Otherwise, unless the one casting judgment was without sin, he was not qualified to kill the one accused of adultery. (not to mention that the man she did it with was not even mentioned.) And Christianity teaches that "we all sin and fall short of the glory of God." Although some under the name of Christianity have done some horrible things in the past, i.e., the inquisition, the burning of accused witches and such from past centuries. But none of these were in harmony with the compassionate teachings of Christ. But on a lighter note, here in America when a woman commits adultery the judge usually gives her the house and half of the husbands property. And that is wrong too.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

As far as i know punishment for adultery is 100 stripes.
The stoning is abrogated by the 100 stripes. So stoning is not anymore to be used, its replaced by 100 stripes.
However salafis will disagree.

 

[YmirGF]

Society has no business in the consensual sexual affairs of its citizens. Period.

I voted that it wasn't a particularly informative thread as I'm already up to speed on how different religions view these matters and am not impressed by their thinking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hello guys.

Note:
Please remember that this is not a debate section. You're welcome to ask question and make respectful remarks (and everything else within the rules), however. Please also stay on topic as much as possible.

I'd like to speak of, discuss and share five points about convicting the adultery act in Islam. Those five are:
1- Requirement for adultery punishment convection.
2- Different punishments for adultery.
3- My view about stoning.
4- Personal comments.
5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.

Okay, let's get started.

1- Requirements for punishment convection:
* The adulterer should be a pubescent adult, in their full mental power, free (not slave), did it by choice, and knowing of the prohibition, and there should be no doubt or suspicion in the occurrence. All these are basic requirements typically required for every other punishment applications.
* Having the glans of the male genitalia fully penetrating the female genitalia.
* Having no doubt, as mentioned in the first requirement, is very important, and examples include having the previous requirement mentioned above done by a man/woman confusing the woman/man with their spouse. This is possible to happen and other now-unknown doubts/suspicions could take place too. Any molecule of doubt and there should be no punishment.
* Confirmation of the occurrence of adultery, and that includes:
- Confession. And that is done that the suspect themselves confess committed adultery and insisting on it until the punishment is performed. Any pulling back at any moment, even right before that means there will be no adultery punishment and it will be included in the doubt part.
- Having the statement of adultery occurrence of four adult eyewitness Muslim men with no bad history or mental problems. Witnessing should cover clearly visibly and undoubtedly seeing the glans of the male genitalia fully penetrating the female genitalia, which is in my opinion almost impossible since Muslims are required to stop what they see wrong if they can. I'll talk about this in my personal comments below.
- Some views include proving it by logic, including scientific means, but I'm really not sure if could be included under suspicion. Video recording, however, could very well be included under the doubtfulness part due to video editing technologies these days.

2- Different punishments for adultery:
Adultery has two punishments:
1- 100 lashes and one year exile (could be sending away from the country or imprisonment appropriately)
2- Stoning, which seems to be controversial at some point. Stoning, however, has an extra requirement, and it is that the adulterers should have already had the legal allowed Islamic sexual intercourse described as the full penetration of the glans of the male genitalia in the female genitalia while being in a legal current or previous marriage.

3- My view about stoning:
I personally don't believe stoning is now a valid punishment at this very moment for one simple reason. It is that the Quran has a general punishment for adultery that does not mention stoning, and it is known that Quran is the first source of rules/laws in Islam. I know that in the time of the Prophet stoning took place (although only by confession and never by witnesses or suspecting, and I'll talk about this later), but I cannot find any proof that (this) those stoning(s) took place happened before or after the revealing of the subject Quranic verse. The Quranic verse generalized the punishment for all adulterers, and that would abrogate/supersede stoning for not including it, which was actually borrowed from previous Abrahamic religions as Islam is believed to be their continuation by Muslims and their laws/rules should be followed as long as Islam does not abrogate/supersede them. I still see there is a possibility that stoning is still valid, but I personally hope, taking the leniency approach, that my view is the right one.

4- Personal comments:
If we look at the requirements above, we see that they are strict and clear cut. I honestly feel that all adultery punishments we hear of around the world don't follow those rules well, and if a molecule is missed of the rules, it is all over, no punishment it there. It is sad to see that convicts get stoned for simply suspecting them. I honestly see that some of the requirements above are extremely difficult to meet, specially the one that involves witnessing the penetration by four men. I mean, first, Islam orders to stop such acts when seen as long as one can do it, either physically or verbally. And of course if under Islamic law one sees adultery they would at least yell at them and the suspect would of course run around like crazy for knowing the punishment. So it is extremely difficult to watch the suspects silently until they make the penetration. Second, and in addition to the first, it is extremely difficult to go and find three other men to watch along, let alone only one person ignoring the first point to watch it in full and clearly? Wait, how close would one get to clearly see the penetration? I mean, this in not porn movie to watch like that!!! When Islam was at its best, adultery had punishment only by confession. These days we unfortunately hear of adultery convictions for simple suspicions. That's really sad

5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.
It is believed that adultery was/is prohibited in Judaism and Christianity before Islam and that at first Islam borrowed stoning from them. I'd like to hear of this from Jewish and Christian members of RF, as well as how is the case with other religions. How is it in Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, and other religions? Is adultery/fornication allowed or forbidden? Sharing in this regard is highly appreciated. It would be educational as well. Other Islamic views are welcomed as well.

Your vote is highly appreciated, and it could help making other similar threads.

Thank you for reading, and sorry for such a huge thread!

Frankly, if I lived in a place where lashing or stoning was the punishment for adultery, I would feel justified in using violence - even deadly force, if need be - to stop someone I cared about having either sentence carried out on them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But on a lighter note, here in America when a woman commits adultery the judge usually gives her the house and half of the husbands property. And that is wrong too.

In Canada, marital property is still split 50-50. Where adultery matters is that it's one of the conditions that let a couple divorce earlier than the normal 1-year separation period.

If a member of a couple feels that they want something more than this in the case that a spouse was unfaithful, they can make arrangements for this in a prenuptial agreement, AFAIK.

I think this approach is fine.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Society has no business in the consensual sexual affairs of its citizens. Period.

I believe adultery/fornication caused, is causing and will keep causing harm to society. Wouldn't that make society have full business in it as it is the concerned victim?

I'm under the impression that because of it thru out history and now many children are experiencing living hell (like children born from prostitutes or those left in orphanages waiting for luck to bring them good foster parents), people lose their heritage not knowing who their fathers are, inheritance lost or stolen because of not knowing who the fathers are, young women impregnated and gave birth to children of whom their fathers ran way and left them in difficult condition, young girls sold into prostitution without their approval according to all of the above...

I think those are good reasons to prohibit adultery/fornication and to have the society have business in it. In your opinion, aren't those good reasons?

 

[Kirran]

I believe adultery/fornication caused, is causing and will keep causing harm to society. Wouldn't that make society have full business in it as it is the concerned victim?

I'm under the impression that because of it thru out history and now many children are experiencing living hell (like children born from prostitutes or those left in orphanages waiting for luck to bring them good foster parents), people lose their heritage not knowing who their fathers are, inheritance lost or stolen because of not knowing who the fathers are, young women impregnated and gave birth to children of whom their fathers ran way and left them in difficult condition, young girls sold into prostitution without their approval according to all of the above...

I think those are good reasons to prohibit adultery/fornication and to have the society have business in it. In your opinion, aren't those good reasons?

Measures to maximise the numbers of adoptive parents is a great way to alleviate these issues to some extent.

R.e. prohibition - it's not the kind of thing that people are going to be obeying the law on anyway. And you get into trouble if you try and legislate it - what about swingers? What about polyamorous people? What about people in open relationships? There's no reason to make laws which impact their freedoms.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Frankly, if I lived in a place where lashing or stoning was the punishment for adultery, I would feel justified in using violence - even deadly force, if need be - to stop someone I cared about having either sentence carried out on them.

Or simply one can just follow simple laws to not bring such punishment upon themselves. It is not like sex is forbidden in itself in the first place. I don't see why people want to go on a sex spree instead of getting married and have a devoted good relationship.

 

[Kirran]

Or simply one can just follow simple laws to not bring such punishment upon themselves. It is not like sex is forbidden in itself in the first place. I don't see why people want to go on a sex spree instead of getting married and have a devoted good relationship.

Better get lashing my parents then man. You pay for the flight over here, and I'll even give you the whips.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Measures to maximise the numbers of adoptive parents is a great way to alleviate these issues to some extent.

R.e. prohibition - it's not the kind of thing that people are going to be obeying the law on anyway. And you get into trouble if you try and legislate it - what about swingers? What about polyamorous people? What about people in open relationships? There's no reason to make laws which impact their freedoms.

Those are good points, but we're talking about adultery/fornication here, and those are decided by the law. All there is to it is that there are laws to follow, and different places have different laws. I'm afraid there is no such total freedom. All countries have laws and no one is perfectly free to do whatever they want. There is no place like this on earth that I know of.

 

[Kirran]

Those are good points, but we're talking about adultery/fornication here, and those are decided by the law. All there is to it is that there are laws to follow, and different places have different laws. I'm afraid there is no such total freedom. All countries have laws and no one is perfectly free to do whatever they want. There is no place like this on earth that I know of.

I'll be honest dude, I don't totally see how that addressed my point. The fact is that there isn't a conceivable benefit to legislating against extra-marital sex that I can see, regardless of any other laws existing within a society.