How God is not loving

[Lighthouse]

According to the scriptures, God does not inflict suffering on the innocent. Nor was suffering His intent for the human race. Humans are free agents who choose to do things their way apart from God's goodness and wisdom. The result being that we inflict suffering upon others and ourselves.

I can see this as being true with the exception that if God created everything from scratch, the ultimate burden would be God's responsibility. Human beings that suffer and cause others to suffer never asked to be created or asked for the free agency to cause suffering. The only way to reconcile this would be that beings always existed too and have been part of creation eternally and chose the path of the flesh and blood on Earth. In this scenario, beings did then ask or choose for this human experience. It really would be the only way that God couldn't be blamed for all suffering.
But the point really is to not blame, for it is hell enough to loathe in agony and hardness of heart than to learn contentment in all things.

 

[Skwim]

That is correct and rationally speaking, for merely being "here in this world."
I suppose there could be only 3 to blame: God if exists, your line of genealogy(particularly your own parents) or if you somehow always existed and chose to be here on Earth.

But as Pyschoslice just mentioned, the past and future don't exist so why blame?

Pyschoslice is mistaken.

Why not just learn to be content with the present and with whatever comes someone's way and shake and discover the root cause for ones own hell in the present?

Because psychologically that's not how we're constructed. Just as everyone lives under the impression there's such a thing as free will. We can't help it.


.

 

[Lighthouse]

Pyschoslice is mistaken.

And
Because psychologically that's not how we're constructed. Just as everyone lives under the impression there's such a thing as free will. We can't help it.


.

True, the past and future do exist in mind.

Are you aware of the way to remove that psychological construction of control and become free? Is that possible in your opinion?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

According to the scriptures, God does not inflict suffering on the innocent. Nor was suffering His intent for the human race. Humans are free agents who choose to do things their way apart from God's goodness and wisdom. The result being that we inflict suffering upon others and ourselves.

He could of at least created a world where there is no suffering so that people who end up making foolish choices won't suffer from them. There are innocent people who make foolish choices that destroy their lives and cause them much suffering. They didn't know that such choices would cause them suffering. So that is unfair for them. It is also unfair for those types of people born with illnesses just because their parents made foolish choices. Therefore, God should of created a world without suffering since that would be fair for all innocent people.

 

[Lighthouse]

He could of at least created a world where there is no suffering so that people who end up making foolish choices won't suffer from them. There are innocent people who make foolish choices that destroy their lives and cause them much suffering. They didn't know that such choices would cause them suffering. So that is unfair for them. It is also unfair for those types of people born with illnesses just because their parents made foolish choices. Therefore, God should of created a world without suffering since that would be fair for all innocent people.

The universe is a pretty vast place. Maybe there is foreign life elsewhere where there is no suffering. Foreign as in, most suffering here are foreign to know that way of life.

 

[InChrist]

He could of at least created a world where there is no suffering so that people who end up making foolish choices won't suffer from them. There are innocent people who make foolish choices that destroy their lives and cause them much suffering. They didn't know that such choices would cause them suffering. So that is unfair for them. It is also unfair for those types of people born with illnesses just because their parents made foolish choices. Therefore, God should of created a world without suffering since that would be fair for all innocent people.

How do you think God should have made a world where foolish or even dangerous choices do not result is suffering? For example, let's say a person takes a knife and stabs another person. How should God have made is so the stabbed person does not suffer? At least in the Bible there are the laws given so that people knew to harm, murder, steal etc. were wrong and harmful and did result in suffering , didn't they?

 

[Neo Deist]

The concept that we are made to suffer in order to grow is man made nonsense. People can see evil in the world and they fall on hardships, so when they started asking religious leaders why that stuff was happening, the best collective answer that was repeatedly given was "we are made to suffer in order to grow and overcome challenges." As if that statement will make everything better. We are all expected to simply say, "oh ok...that's the reason." Hogwash.

Humans have free will. Suffering happens because someone else chooses to do something that causing suffering for another (theft, bullying, assault, rape, murder, etc.) or humans live near areas that are known to have natural disasters (coasts, fault lines, near a volcano, etc.). It has nothing to do with God. Our choices affect our lives and the lives of others, plain and simple.

It is time to stop blaming everything on otherworldly forces and start taking responsibility for our actions.

 

[Willamena]

Pyschoslice is mistaken.

Yes. It should read that the past and the future exist only in relation to the present.

Because psychologically that's not how we're constructed. Just as everyone lives under the impression there's such a thing as free will. We can't help it.

You mean it's not how we're programmed.

 

[Lighthouse]

The concept that we are made to suffer in order to grow is man made nonsense. People can see evil in the world and they fall on hardships, so when they started asking religious leaders why that stuff was happening, the best collective answer that was repeatedly given was "we are made to suffer in order to grow and overcome challenges." As if that statement will make everything better. We are all expected to simply say, "oh ok...that's the reason." Hogwash.

Humans have free will. Suffering happens because someone else chooses to do something that causing suffering for another (theft, bullying, assault, rape, murder, etc.) or humans live near areas that are known to have natural disasters (coasts, fault lines, near a volcano, etc.). It has nothing to do with God. Our choices affect our lives and the lives of others, plain and simple.

It is time to stop blaming everything on otherworldly forces and start taking responsibility for our actions.

I agree with most of this. Is it possible for someone to not fall when hardship comes in your opinion? That is, any hardship that arises in ones control and out of ones control?

 

[Willamena]

I agree with most of this. Is it possible for someone to not fall when hardship comes in your opinion? That is, any hardship that arises in ones control and out of ones control?

That would be what we call a wise man.

 

[InChrist]

I can see this as being true with the exception that if God created everything from scratch, the ultimate burden would be God's responsibility. Human beings that suffer and cause others to suffer never asked to be created or asked for the free agency to cause suffering. The only way to reconcile this would be that beings always existed too and have been part of creation eternally and chose the path of the flesh and blood on Earth. In this scenario, beings did then ask or choose for this human experience. It really would be the only way that God couldn't be blamed for all suffering.
But the point really is to not blame, for it is hell enough to loathe in agony and hardness of heart than to learn contentment in all things.

I see the point you are making. Nevertheless, even if God created humans from scratch as opposed to them having always existed (an idea I see no scriptural support for), I do not see that the ultimate burden would be God's responsibility since at least from the biblical perspective humans were created in the image of God. This means that we are given the ability to think and choose. Not only that, but God gave His creation loving care and instruction meant to protect us from suffering. Sadly, this was rejected which resulted in the suffering we are discussing. It may be true that no one asked to be created and live in this world, but here we are. The other option would have been for God never to create life at all, but it seems that most people do value their life to one degree or another and if God did not create humans this conversation would be mute and non-existent.

 

[InChrist]

The universe is a pretty vast place. Maybe there is foreign life elsewhere where there is no suffering. Foreign as in, most suffering here are foreign to know that way of life.

Could you explain this a little further?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

How do you think God should have made a world where foolish or even dangerous choices do not result is suffering? For example, let's say a person takes a knife and stabs another person. How should God have made is so the stabbed person does not suffer? At least in the Bible there are the laws given so that people knew to harm, murder, steal etc. were wrong and harmful and did result in suffering , didn't they?

You could have brains that don't experience pain and suffering. So when you get stabbed, you die, but you don't experience any pain, grief, or suffering.

 

[George-ananda]

I will reiterate my point one last time in this topic. It is a much more brief topic. Therefore, it is bound to have more replies rather than people ignoring it. So this is my last topic in which this point will be made. I hear people say that suffering is inflicted upon us for our own personal growth and development.

But imagine if I went up to someone innocent, inflicted unimaginable mental pain and suffering upon him/her, and then said to him/her:

"I know, it's hard. But life was never meant to be easy. You mere meant to suffer. Life is a hard school for our learning, growing, and developing."

Imagine if I said that while this person was going insane, screaming, suicidal, and begging to be put out of his/her misery.

That loathsome, cruel, careless abomination that would be me could easily represent who God is as well. So as you can clearly see here, God is not the loving caring God many people make Him out to be.

That is, if there really is a God. There might not even be a God, afterlife, or anything paranormal. The natural world might really be all there is. I just find myself enraged with people who somehow think that this would be a loving and caring God.

If this God actually existed, I would choose to destroy Him off the face of this universe once and for all.

I think to make sense of all this we need a different way of thinking about God. I believe in reincarnation over a long period of time leading in the end to Liberation. So from our limited perspective we can not see the big picture where we can see the cause and reason for all these things.

 

[Deeje]

Then I started thinking, "What if God isn't ALL Good? What if he is just like us?" cause the bible does state "created in his image".
I've been searching for years for my answers, all I can do is guess & assume.

Have you ever undertaken a topical study of the Bible? i.e one topic at a time and really examined what it tells you about God?
I can relate to your background and this is what I did.

I will give you an example....you asked above...." "What if God isn't ALL Good? What if he is just like us?" cause the bible does state "created in his image".

Being created in God's image, doesn't mean that God is reflected in our image but that originally we were created in his. We have his attributes, like his sense of justice, his love that we see reflected in nature, his wisdom in using our intellect to make important decisions by evaluating pros and con in any given situation.....and the power to make things happen when we put our mind to it. We don't individually have the power to change the world, but we have the power to change ourselves.

We alone have a moral sense and feel emotions when our senses are challenged. We hate injustice and ugliness and filth and disorder because we are created in a perfect God's image. But the fall in Eden means that we no longer display these attributes in balance. We now imperfectly reflect our God's image....it is tarnished...defective...a distorted image. This doesn't mean that God is not good...it means that once a knowledge of evil entered human consciousness, then evil deeds were not far behind. Within one generation of Adam's rebellion, a murderer was produced...such is the power of sin.

The next important question to answer then is, "what did God do about fallen humanity?" How did he go about fixing what went wrong? He could have just destroyed the rebels and started again....do you know why he didn't? Was giving humans free will a mistake?

What do you think?

I came to the point of "theres no point in being against him, theres no point in blaming him" cause for all I know, we could have chosen to live like this an God is merely respecting our wishes. The fact is, I don't know. No one really does.
I don't claim God to be loving or evil, I don't know honestly, I can only hope that he is good & his reason for not stopping us from suffering is a damn good reason.

There are exceptionally good reasons for God's permission of our present difficult state.....suffering and all the woes we see are the result of something over which we have no control.....a contest for the hearts and minds of men. There are two rival "gods"....one is the true God and the other is a pretender. There is no mystery...the Bible explains everything.

If you were a parent and your child was born with a defect that would afflict him for the rest of his life, would you permit the most painful surgery to correct that defect if you knew that the result would eliminate all future suffering, not only for him, but it would serve to help others with the same affliction? Would the pain be worth it?

If you understand why humans lost their original perfection and became sinful, then you can appreciate that it isn't just God who is involved in this scenario. The first rebel was not human. It is this one who is the cause of all human suffering. He has an agenda that was revealed, not only in his words to the woman in Eden, but also through the testing of the man named Job. (Job 1 & 2)

The devil accused God of putting a protective hedge around Job, and around everything he possessed, and suggested that this was the only reason why Job stayed faithful to his God. He told God to take that hedge away and then strip Job of every material thing that mattered to him. Could Job remain faithful to his God if that was permitted? Only a test would answer that question, so God allowed Job to be tested ...but there was a limit. (Job 1:12) Job passed the test, even though he lost everything, including his 10 children. But satan wasn't finished with him yet.....he then said that Job would give anything in exchange for his life....claiming that he would curse God and leave him if he was made to suffer physically. So again a test was permitted...and again Job passed the test. But the devil was not permitted to take his life. (Job 2:6-8)

We are all "Job" in this life, and the devil has pointed an accusing finger at God in behalf of all of us as well. (Prov 27:11) How are we going in this test? Is satan telling the truth, or are God's servants truly dedicated to their God out of genuine unselfish love? Will we endure all that the devil throws at us and not turn our back on our Creator, even if the test is severe? There is a large reward for those who endure and pass the test.

Job 42:12-17:
"So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning, and Job came to have 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 pairs of cattle, and 1,000 female donkeys.  He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters..... After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations. 17 Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."

I am still in the middle of what to believe. And so far, o matter what anyone has said to convince to join in belief of god or against him,
I still keep coming back to my questions - they don't help me hate him, they don't convince me that he isn't real, and they don't help me want to be with him.

The bible is a book written by man. And because of that alone, a single question is what stops me from picking a definitive side; " What if The bible could be what god did not intend and the writers could have lied?"

If we have a Creator who loves us and has the power to create the universe, then surely he has the power to write and preserve his own written instructions for mankind.
If you don't believe that, then there is not even a starting point to an investigation.

I'm not trying to defend god or battle against him. I'm just trying to understand & figure out why.

If anything I have said resonates with you please continue the conversation, if not, then no harm done and I wish you well in your journey.

 

[Deeje]

He could of at least created a world where there is no suffering so that people who end up making foolish choices won't suffer from them. There are innocent people who make foolish choices that destroy their lives and cause them much suffering. They didn't know that such choices would cause them suffering. So that is unfair for them. It is also unfair for those types of people born with illnesses just because their parents made foolish choices. Therefore, God should of created a world without suffering since that would be fair for all innocent people.

God originally created the world as a perfect place with no suffering or evil, but the first pair misused their free will and introduced evil into the world. Suffering is a by-product of evil.

Once the genie was out of the bottle, there was no sending it back, so God has allowed the human race to experience what it means to make bad choices and to ignore the laws of their Creator.

For all our suffering, there is a reason and this is what Isaiah says concerning all our troubles....
Isaiah 65:17:
"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart."

When God brings the rulership of his Kingdom to this earth, in a whole new cleansed earth, we will not even remember the bad times.

 

[Tabu]

So we bring sorrow upon ourselves by merely being. No doubt the fault of our parents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great-great grandparents, whose existence is no doubt the fault of our great-great-great grandparents, whose . . . . . . .*yawn* . . . . . .of Homo habilis. Rationally speaking, that is.

.

All of us are responsible

My child is killed at school in a mass shooting and my sorrow over it is because I did what? In some way I was instrumental in the shooting? All the parents of all the victims were?

Now , why should God be blamed for that , both the instrument and the hatred which triggered it were a creation of man.
Supposedly your father hands over to you a posh new well furnished luxurious building,and after some years you see some cracks appear , some faulty leaks here and there due to your poor maintenance , or a wall collapses or a furniture breaks due to your children fighting amongst each other and one of your child gets hurt , who is to be blamed? Did God do all that ?

Somewhere one of our grandparents didn't teach siblings to love one another , to stay in harmony , and the siblings passed this hatred through generations ,so each one is responsible, after all ,we all are children of some great ,great grandparent . Instead of taking personal responsibility and rectifying what has been damaged we play victim, become spectators and put the entire blame on God .

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Supposedly your father hands over to you a posh new well furnished luxurious building,and after some years you see some cracks appear , some faulty leaks here and there due to your poor maintenance , or a wall collapses or a furniture breaks due to your children fighting amongst each other and one of your child gets hurt , who is to be blamed? Did God do all that ?

So God is an absentee landlord.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God (according to religion) is equivalent to a Parent. In fact he expressing referred to as "Heavenly Father" and we are his "Children".
*Trying to find a way to put perspective in this without sounding like a dick*
Did your parents shield you all your life from any possible form of suffering? They love you (I assume an hope they do), is it not a Parent's duty to protect their from the world that may harm them or make them sad in any way?

I don't blame God when children grow to adulthood unable to process even the slightest adversity. Basic life skills should be taught by parents.

I am someone who does not wish to suffer.

Only masochists wish for it. However, as life stands now, suffering exists and what matters is how you deal with it. Sometimes you can rally the troops and win the war. Sometimes it's just hide in a hole and wait until it all blows over. And sometimes it's a faint smile as the gigantic wave nothing can stop comes right for you.

I am now suffering from much depression and misery in my life.

And this is due to the fact you don't have any coping skills. I have lived a life FULL of depression and anxiety. You either get through it or you don't. I don't hate on people who decide to just let the wave get them, though. It's not up to others to determine if life is worth living for certain people if possible.

I suppose that if someone knows that this is capable of happening in this world, the rational explanation would be to not have children, homeschool children, or if someone does have children to be content and fearless as they know that there are virtually an infinite number of outcomes that can potentially happen to someone's child.

What if you homeschool children and the house burns down? There's only so much we can do to protect ourselves and others.

I would rather posit that it's the community's fault (assuming the perp is from there) that there was a school shooting. After all, the community, had it any interest in BEING a community, would try to reduce such things by cracking down on bullying and dealing with the reasons those shooters are doing it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, after all.

According to the scriptures, God does not inflict suffering on the innocent.

That is the ENTIRE plot of Job.

Humans are free agents who choose to do things their way apart from God's goodness and wisdom.

What's the point of worshipping God if He's no more powerful, or even LESS powerful, than we are?

For example, let's say a person takes a knife and stabs another person. How should God have made is so the stabbed person does not suffer?

Lack of pain receptors. More than one person has that. It was even a plot on SVU, if I recall, where a little girl thought she was a superhero because she couldn't feel any injury.

The concept that we are made to suffer in order to grow is man made nonsense. People can see evil in the world and they fall on hardships, so when they started asking religious leaders why that stuff was happening, the best collective answer that was repeatedly given was "we are made to suffer in order to grow and overcome challenges." As if that statement will make everything better. We are all expected to simply say, "oh ok...that's the reason." Hogwash.

Too often it's used as an excuse not to help relieve that suffering. Job's friends came mostly to criticize him, not empty out the bedpan or get him some pain relievers....

It is time to stop blaming everything on otherworldly forces and start taking responsibility for our actions.

Not all suffering is due to our actions, though, but the actions of others, human or otherwise. People who die in a tsunami are, at worst, only at fault for building a house in a tsunami-prone area. If an asteroid hit earth, that's even LESS we could do about it and can't be at fault for the suffering that would result.

God originally created the world as a perfect place with no suffering or evil, but the first pair misused their free will and introduced evil into the world. Suffering is a by-product of evil.

Shouldn't evil already exist because the fruit gave one knowledge of it? What's there to know about evil if it doesn't exist yet?

If you were a parent and your child was born with a defect that would afflict him for the rest of his life, would you permit the most painful surgery to correct that defect if you knew that the result would eliminate all future suffering, not only for him, but it would serve to help others with the same affliction? Would the pain be worth it?

That would be something to ask the kid. Within reason, every patient should decide their own medical future.

Could Job remain faithful to his God if that was permitted?

If your spouse beat you to within an inch of your life, are you seriously supposed to remain faithful to this spouse?

Should children who are found starved and filled with sores be forced to live with their abusive parents because they should "remain faithful"?

Supposedly your father hands over to you a posh new well furnished luxurious building,and after some years you see some cracks appear , some faulty leaks here and there due to your poor maintenance , or a wall collapses or a furniture breaks due to your children fighting amongst each other and one of your child gets hurt , who is to be blamed? Did God do all that ?

Life skills should be something the parents teach, yes. My father had a new family and my maternal grandfather also had this air about him that the male (my younger brother) should be doing "head of the family" things, but reality check: I'm the only one who was willing and able, so I fought to get the lessons I needed because I knew he wouldn't live forever.

 

[Whiterain]

Eh, well why don't people get inquisitive. Think deductively, be inquisitive... People will brand you a trouble maker and nuisance for taking off their blinders.

People just want to live their banal little lives and all too ignorant, not excluding myself. People would be appalled they are as much the cattle as they eat.

God may or may not show particular interest in you, heck, even want to fornicate with you in no particular form or preference. Please take into deep consideration a prophylactic because nobody wants a guilt baby, particular a Gods ******* child now. Girl you better flush that one, namean. No wire hangers!

No kidding, put dat little duke down the drain. He was goin be no good for this world. I could cut up now.