The Qur'an allows sex-slaves...!?

[Lyndon]

You'd have to read it, something I consider highly unlikely to happen, so until you do I suggest you with hold comment, because frankly your comments don't sound very well thought out.

 

[YmirGF]

Islam spread to Indonesia in the mid-19th C? The 'civilised world' was pretty keen on slavery in Indonesia until this point.

And Indonesians secretly harbour a desire to harvest slaves but don't in case the white man will go 'tsk tsk' and glance disapprovingly at them?

Indonesia had a history of slavery, same as any other. Both indigenous and colonial. The Dutch/VOC were particularly prolific in the 17th-19thth C, and the Japanese in the WW2 era.

Anyway, there is actually quite a lot of slavery, but of the same kind that exists in Thailand, or Holland, or India, or Russia. It is criminal and for financial gain, rather than something religiously motivated.

I was thinking more along the lines in the latter half of the 20th century, you know, when Indonesia became an independant state. But, thanks for the nuanced history lesson.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You'd have to read it, something I consider highly unlikely to happen, so until you do I suggest you with hold comment,

That doesn't answer any of my questions. But then I shouldn't be surprised. You have a track record of skilled evasion of points. You're asking me to take you at your word that not only does this translation exists (something I'm sceptical of since the internet doesn't even allude to it) but that I should believe you when you say it's better than a translation written by a man who could speak English & Arabic fluently and spent his life studying this. The fact that you've missed the point I was making isn't encouraging either: if the Yusuf Ali or any of the other translations Rival mentioned are so flawed, why were they held in such high regard as Arabic-English translations for so long? Surely that would indicate that these translations have at least some degree of efficacy.

because frankly your comments don't sound very well thought out.

Coming from someone who can't tell that there is a difference between criticising, mocking or attacking Islam and criticising, mocking or attacking Muslims, this is too rich. Seriously, how often do you bend over backwards to excuse or deflect any and all criticism? It seems that Islam can do no wrong, and those who point out its flaws are only ever wrong to you.

 

[Sabour]

???

When told that islam teaches to free slaves, you said "to free a slave one must first have a slave" indicating that that islam is teaching slavery.

If you were taught to solve your problems, does that mean the person that taught you is encouraging having problems?

That was my point. If you suggest a solution for a problem that exists, that doesn't mean you are supporting it.

 

[Augustus]

I was thinking more along the lines in the latter half of the 20th century, you know, when Indonesia became an independant state. But, thanks for the nuanced history lesson.

In the spirit of your nuanced version of history, why would you suggest that the prohibition of slavery in Indonesia was a reluctant sop to 'the civilised world', rather than reflecting the desires of the Indonesian people and their secular nationalist leader who advocated a populist form of socialism? (Ymir: It probably isn't a fashion there simply because they know how the rest of the world would react.)

 

[Lyndon]

That doesn't answer any of my questions. But then I shouldn't be surprised. You have a track record of skilled evasion of points. You're asking me to take you at your word that not only does this translation exists (something I'm sceptical of since the internet doesn't even allude to it) but that I should believe you when you say it's better than a translation written by a man who could speak English & Arabic fluently and spent his life studying this. The fact that you've missed the point I was making isn't encouraging either: if the Yusuf Ali or any of the other translations Rival mentioned are so flawed, why were they held in such high regard as Arabic-English translations for so long? Surely that would indicate that these translations have at least some degree of efficacy.




Coming from someone who can't tell that there is a difference between criticising, mocking or attacking Islam and criticising, mocking or attacking Muslims, this is too rich. Seriously, how often do you bend over backwards to excuse or deflect any and all criticism? It seems that Islam can do no wrong, and those who point out its flaws are only ever wrong to you.

More ridiculous comments, where you even aware that the Koran is not written in modern Arabic, and that the Arabic of the Koran is not even a spoken language today, it takes a little bit more than being able to speak English and Arabic to make a scholarly translation of the Koran, say University degrees in classical Arabic, and a team of translators comparing notes etc. Most translations of the Koran are akin the the very poorly translated Good News Bible, where historical accuracy is thrown out the window to put forward the author's own particular agenda. And invariably, Islamic detractors like you quote form the worst translations in discussions like this, but according to your expertise, they're all the same.

 

[Sabour]

I think 0ne means emancipating all the slaves in Muhammad's time would have caused more problems than it solved - problems to do with where would these newly freed people live? What jobs would they have? Who would pay them? etc

That is one side I talked about, but not related to the post that was quoted.

Of course it fails to address the fact that if they had wanted to. The Muslims could have focussed their efforts on social reform, building new homes in anticipation of the whole pool of new free men, women & children who were about to become full citizens of whichever city they lived in.

What you are suggesting can't be done at the times were Islams were being forced out their homes and not all muslims will have the capability to do that, financially speaking. Slaves were in huge amount . Of course it is easy for one to sit and come on with potential solution, but practically, this could prove to be impossible. You are talking about this as if these people will be easily finding other means for living with ease.

. But no, they chose to subjugate & forcefully convert Arabs including the city of Ta'if, then to spread Islam by invading other powers instead.

Islam says there should be no compulsion in religion. Muhammad peace be upon him was the best muslim. He followed what Islam teaches and lived up the message he was delivering.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was abused, people fabricated things against him, they spit on him, they beat him almost to death in front of the Kaaba, and he ventured out all the way to Taif, and that is a tough journey. When he got there he wanted to talk to the tribal leaders. The custom to the arabs at that time was tat when you have visitors, you take care of them for three days without a question. However that wasnt the case. They made jokes about him, laughed and made snide remarks. Even the children at that area were told to throw stones at him and so they did until blood was all over his body and he was running away. One he was out of the city, the angel Gabriel came, the same angel of revelation and that who came to Mary to tell her the news of the miraclous birth, Gabriel told Muhammad peace be upon him, that Allah can command the mountains to come down on the people of the Taif and destroy them. Gabriel told him that all he had to do is to say words to do that. What did the prophet do?

He raised his hands to make a prayer. "To You, my Lord,
I complain of my weakness,
lack of support and the humiliation I am made to receive.
Most Compassionate and Merciful!
You are the Lord of the weak,
and you are my Lord.
To whom do You leave me?
To a distant person who receives me with hostility?
Or to an enemy You have given power over me?
As long as you are not displeased with me,
I do not care what I face.
I would, however,
be much happier with Your mercy.
I seek refuge in the light of Your face by which all darkness is
dispelled and both this life and the life to come are put in
their right course against incurring your wrath or being the
subject of your anger.
To You I submit,
until I earn Your pleasure.
Everything is powerless without your support."


`Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported: I asked the Prophet (PBUH) “Have you ever experienced a day harder than the day of the battle of Uhud?” He replied, “Indeed, I experienced them (dangers) at the hands of your people (i.e., the disbelievers from amongst the Quraish tribe). The hardest treatment I met from them was on the Day of `Aqabah when I went to Ibn `Abd Yalil bin `Abd Kulal (who was one of the chiefs of Ta’if) with the purpose of inviting him to Islam, but he made no response (to my call). So I departed with deep distress. I did not recover until I arrived at Qarn ath-Tha`alib. There, I raised my head and saw a cloud which had cast its shadow on me. I saw in it Jibril (Gabriel) (PBUH) who called me and said: `Indeed, Allah, the Exalted, heard what your people said to you and the response they made to you. And He has sent you the angel in charge of the mountains to order him to do to them what you wish.’ Then the angel of the mountains called me, greeted me and said: `O Muhammad, Allah listened to what your people had said to you. I am the angel of the mountains, and my Rubb has sent me to you so that you may give me your orders. (I will carry out your orders). If you wish I will bring together the two mountains that stand opposite to each other at the extremities of Makkah to crush them in between.”’ But Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, “I rather hope that Allah will raise from among their descendants people as will worship Allah the One, and will not ascribe partners to Him (in worship).”

 

[Rival]

K: The Qur'an allows sex slaves.
M: No it doesn't!
K: But look, this translation says 'slave-girls'.
M: That translation wasn't even done by a Muslim.It's no good.
K: But look at all these other translations! This one says 'those whom your right hand possesses' and these say 'captives' and 'war booty'' and this...
M: The translations are all wrong! The good translation is the King Fahd translation. Use that.
K: Okay, I've googled, and this King Fahd b.s. doesn't exist.
M: Well it...it...it's still better than those translations!!!

 

[Lyndon]

And I spent several months reading a translation that doesn't exist, yeah right!!!! That I was given as a gift by the mosque, who had tonnes of Yusef Ali translations which they told me weren't very good, and only a few of this one which were I assume quite expensive by comparison, and yet because its not available on your search of the internet, you claim it doesn't exist and I am a liar. great way to have a dialogue, you're not doing well with your other arguments either, I'm absolutely sure Zoroastrian society had just as big a problem with slavery as Islam did.

 

[crossfire]

s

it's said it's ok but enourage to free slaves.

btw which religions in world ban slavery ?

I do believe Baha'i bans slavery.
Buddhism: One listed mode of wrong livelihood is being a "dealer in humans." (Buddhists can't be involved in slave trade.) Also, neither slaves nor slave-debtors were allowed to become Buddhist monks or nuns (as they are participants in slave trade.)

 

[illykitty]

K: The Qur'an allows sex slaves.
M: No it doesn't!
K: But look, this translation says 'slave-girls'.
M: That translation wasn't even done by a Muslim.It's no good.
K: But look at all these other translations! This one says 'those whom your right hand possesses' and these say 'captives' and 'war booty'' and this...
M: The translations are all wrong! The good translation is the King Fahd translation. Use that.
K: Okay, I've googled, and this King Fahd b.s. doesn't exist.
M: Well it...it...it's still better than those translations!!!

And copying the Arabic into Google translates "those whom your right hand possesses" into "possess their oaths", whatever that means, I have no clue.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Were there born-muslims in the time of Muhammad, are you kidding or lack something?

I get the impression I misread the tone of your rhetorical question. My mistake!

 

[Godobeyer]

s
I do believe Baha'i bans slavery.
Buddhism: One listed mode of wrong livelihood is being a "dealer in humans." (Buddhists can't be involved in slave trade.) Also, neither slaves nor slave-debtors were allowed to become Buddhist monks or nuns (as they are participants in slave trade.)

reference plz ?
how about other major religions ?

 

[crossfire]

reference plz ?
how about other major religions ?

Vanijja Sutta (Wrong Livelihood)

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."​

The Vinaya rules might take some digging up for a link.


I googled Baha'i and slavery, and found this:
http://theaqdas.org/search.php?searchquery=slave

IVD1yii.

IVD1yii. Slave trading
k72.

It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God's servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things.​

 

[Godobeyer]

Vanijja Sutta (Wrong Livelihood)

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."​

The Vinaya rules might take some digging up for a link.


I googled Baha'i and slavery, and found this:
http://theaqdas.org/search.php?searchquery=slave

IVD1yii.

IVD1yii. Slave trading
k72.

It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God's servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things.​

It's talking about trade and business ,Is that mean forcely that someone could not give a present (for free) a slave to someone else ?

Why some people did not admire that Islam encourage free the slaves ? which lead in the end that all human being are free!

 

[Aquitaine]

Rival has posted a passage from perhaps the worst translation of the Koran in History, no wonder she has so many problems with it.

When you have to start blaming the koran for "misrepresenting" itself then you know you have a problem.

Slavery is supported in the Jewish scriptures, too.

So you now admit that the koran supports it?

 

[Aquitaine]

Slavery is not exists in Muslim world no more as commun behave, expect in parts Mouritania, but they fighting it.




In subject of "Red Light District" , or strip clubs, I consider to call it modern slavery.

Interesting that you consider the west to have slavery but not the muslim world. One would have to then wonder why free people from the muslim world are deciding to move to the corrupt slave-ridden western countries?

 

[Godobeyer]

Interesting that you consider the west to have slavery but not the muslim world. One would have to then wonder why free people from the muslim world are deciding to move to the corrupt slave-ridden western countries?

I think slavery is ban by law in Muslim world.

as individaul acts does exist in both sides (West or Muslim world).

for Red Light District or strip clubs did not exist in Muslim world .

 

[Godobeyer]

Again :
Why some people did not admire that Islam encourage free the slaves ? which lead in the end that all human being are free!

 

[crossfire]

It's talking about trade and business ,Is that mean forcely that someone could not give a present (for free) a slave to someone else ?

That would still be dealing in human beings.