Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
No historical evidence for him being a prophet or a messiah.
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Jesus is God.
- Thread starter Templar of Truth
- Start date
No historical evidence for him being a prophet or a messiah.
Even more reason to doubt it's accurate claims because believers would have the biggest urge to convince someone in their religion and re-do the things to fit their new idea of human-god. Where & how does the Quran rip off the Old Testament & New Testament? It says very clearly that Torah was given (which is not whole Old Testament) and it doesn't follow the story of New Testament (Yeshua ﷺ being God) so there aren't any rip off things you're claiming.
Do you have any evidence on this? Also the: It's the literal word of God. Doesn't count as valid evidence, that's the claim that can't be proved.
So you claim that God who created us doesn't know what we feel & what we are weak to, so He had to become human to know this?
If so it's a very huge insult for God and He is the one that forgives directly, no middle man or part of him, even dramatic play is needed.
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I have a feeling that it wouldn't matter what information you are presented, so there is that.
Most of the problems come from the following section and ones like it:
[VERSE=Matthew 4:1-11,ASV][VERSENUM]1[/VERSENUM] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
[VERSENUM]2[/VERSENUM] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he afterward hungered.
[VERSENUM]3[/VERSENUM] And the tempter came and said unto him, If thou art the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.
[VERSENUM]4[/VERSENUM] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
[VERSENUM]5[/VERSENUM] Then the devil taketh him into the holy city; and he set him on the pinnacle of the temple, [VERSENUM]6[/VERSENUM] and saith unto him, If thou art the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and, On their hands they shall bear thee up, Lest haply thou dash thy foot against a stone.
[VERSENUM]7[/VERSENUM] Jesus said unto him, Again it is written, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God.
[VERSENUM]8[/VERSENUM] Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; [VERSENUM]9[/VERSENUM] and he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
[VERSENUM]10[/VERSENUM] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
[VERSENUM]11[/VERSENUM] Then the devil leaveth him; and behold, angels came and ministered unto him.[/VERSE]
Do you talk about yourself in the third person much?
jaybird
Member
i would like to get more thoughts on the word / title “Elohim”. trinity supporters point to this and claim it means the trinity. it is a plural word but this would only indicate more than one and not 3 and only 3. and there is nothing in context to suggest 3 but rather the following context would support 1 creator: "“So Elohim created man in His own image". not our image. but i would like to better understand why they use a plural word. i have read about the plural of majesty and the angelic beings of the court to explain this but they dont seem so convening. i mean why not just say that to begin with.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Jesus was never a god.
Jesus created nothing, so he cannot be the creator.
Regards
According to the Christian scriptures, Jesus is the divine "son of God". John called him "theos" (god) but not "ho theos" (The God) which means that Jesus was god-like.....a "mighty one". (John 1:1) He was called "the only begotten god" in verse 18 of John ch1, after acknowledging that "no one has ever seen God". So being "theos" or god-like, doesn't give him equal status with his superior Father.
He was never referred to as "Almighty" in any part of the Bible.....only the one true God is "Almighty".
Jesus is referred to in scripture as being used by God as the agency "through" which creation came. (John 1:3; Col 1:15, 16) He is personified as "wisdom" in Prov 8:30, 31 and said to have worked at his Father's side.
That doesn't make him the Creator but the fabricator of what God brought into existence as the raw materials. It is God who created all things. Jesus is NOT the Creator but a "Master Craftsman" working under the direction of his own Creator.
Templar of Truth
Member
Thanks for putting in your opinion in without looking at the evidence. Next time take your preconceived notions out of the picture and just read the evidence.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The Christian scripture is neither written by Jesus nor dictated by him, it is just opinion of the scribes who had written a gospel-book . The Christian scripture also does not give reason for the claims it makes, so it cannot be from the Wise God.
Regards
And what evidence do you have for any of the sweeping statements you make? Without citing any proof for your assertions, your words are as empty as you believe ours are.
jaybird
Member
they may not have been written by Jesus but those that wrote His teachings down got them from the inner circle of Jesus or from the 12 Apostles. dont under estimate the oral traditions of those days. what was written 50 - 150 years after His crucifixion would have been no different than what Jesus taught.
Whether the apostles wrote the Christian scriptures personally or dictated them, "all scripture is inspired of God" (2 Tim 3:16, 17) and proves its worth in the way it works to benefit the ones who follow it. Christ's teachings always benefit those who uphold them. But history reveals that men did not uphold them and still don't.
I might have to disagree with the value of oral tradition, which can be changed to suit the one speaking it.
Jesus said of the Pharisees....
Matt 15:7-9:
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’"
The written word is reliable because it is a product of God's holy spirit.
But an apostasy was foretold early in the piece and "Christianity" suffered the same outcome as Judaism when "men" decided to interpret scripture for themselves and ran contrary to the teachings of the Christ. The trinity is only one such teaching...there are many more.
jaybird
Member
i think there is a difference in what we are talking about.
the teachers that held the oral traditions were the ones holding the teachings. when Jesus taught on the 2 highest commandments, wise men would carry those teachings orally for the next generation, this was their job and they were good at it. its the same principal of most of the Hebrew bible. many of those stories took place hundreds of years before they were written down.
i believe what Jesus was teaching was men teaching their own laws as if they were the Lords law.
Serenity Now
Member
Ditto on that.I have a feeling that it wouldn't matter what information you are presented, so there is that.
First Baseman
Retired athlete
Of course not. Only Mohammed's voice is heard by people of Islam. Of course he was all knowing so we should listen to him...
Serenity Now
Member
This scripture (which are the words of Christ) tells us that Jesus and the Father are the same and that Jesus is God.
John 14:6-20
[6] Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. [7] If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him. [8] Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father? [10] Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.
[11] Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? [12] Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. [13] Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [14] If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. [15] If you love me, keep my commandments.
[16] And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with youfor ever. [17] The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. [20] In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
John 14:6-20
[6] Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. [7] If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him. [8] Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father? [10] Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.
[11] Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? [12] Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. [13] Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [14] If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. [15] If you love me, keep my commandments.
[16] And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with youfor ever. [17] The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. [20] In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
First Baseman
Retired athlete
Preach it, man, preach it!
jaybird
Member
John 10 30
I and the Father are one
the trinity teaches this passage means the Son is same as Father meaning the Son is the Lord most High, or 1 of the 3 of the trinity
John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
this oneness that Jesus has, Jesus wants the same for everyone. "they all may be one". how does this work in the trinity when only 3 beings have this oneness?
I and the Father are one
the trinity teaches this passage means the Son is same as Father meaning the Son is the Lord most High, or 1 of the 3 of the trinity
John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
this oneness that Jesus has, Jesus wants the same for everyone. "they all may be one". how does this work in the trinity when only 3 beings have this oneness?
Just listen to Jesus( pbuh) he pray God, he never ask people to pray to him.
When he said , God "father"know better than me.
You made him God by thoughts , he never claimed
First Baseman
Retired athlete
He did claim to be the Son of God. He claimed that He and God are one. Did you miss all of the quoted scripture in this thread? Or did you just decide that you don't care about it because Mohammed didn't say it himself?
Who are you going to trust, Mohammed or all of the authors of the NT? I know who I'm going with, how about you?