Finding excuses to hate Muslims?

[Marsh]

I think you are failing to notice how little separate those people from your garden variety national military, personally.

I should perhaps mention that I am Canadian. Our military personnel are nothing like ISIS.

The difference between the military in the West, and ISIS, is that we don't deliberately make a point of killing civilians. We don't terrorize them by rounding up the men and boys and killing them, and forcing the marriageable women and girls into slavery. We aren't attempting to exterminate Islamic populations whose theology we don't recognize, which is what ISIS is doing. I could go on. A chasm separates the "garden variety national military" in the West from the likes of ISIS.

 

[Marsh]

Please if you wouldn't mind to humor me, what Muslim nations have established a military force in non Muslim countries en masse over the past 50 years?

This has been attempted a number of times against Israel, but in every case the invading forces have been driven back; and you seriously think ISIS wouldn't invade non-Muslim countries if they had the chance? ISIS supporters repeatedly claim they will take over the world.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I think it's time for Muslim bashers to admit they were duped. This was all ploy devised by the powers that be, the same ones that manipulate the media on a daily basis and create the news, not report it. They needed a scapegoat, a group that people could get mad at.

 

[YmirGF]

I think it's time for Muslim bashers to admit they were duped. This was all ploy devised by the powers that be, the same ones that manipulate the media on a daily basis and create the news, not report it. They needed a scapegoat, a group that people could get mad at.

We could go back to making Commies the bad guys? Would you be into an "Adopt a Muslim terrorist" campaign?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Please if you wouldn't mind to humor me, what Muslim nations have established a military force in non Muslim countries en masse over the past 50 years? Now what Christian nations have established a military force en masse in non Christian countries over the past 50 years? Do you honestly believe that democracy does not propegate supremacy and conquest

Why go back only 50 years? Why not go back further - say 100 or more? Then we have at least one example of a Muslim empire attempting to interfere in regional politics (the Ottoman Empire getting involved in a war which was up until that point solely between European powers). If we continue from there we see an almost unbroken line of Islamic empires stretching back pretty much to the religion's inception in Arabia. All of these Muslim empires or 'caliphates' used their clout to influence politics on an international level - they invaded Europe, Africa, Persia, India, the Mediterranean.

Yes, Western imperialism is responsible for things done in the past. I'd be stupid to deny it. But you should stop pretending like Muslims are the flawless victims here. I've even seen Muslims around the internet claiming that if the situation were reversed, Muslims would never infringe on another nation's sovereignty - they'd respect their neighbours and live in peace with them. Frankly, that's an outright lie. You can't even live in peace with yourselves or others most of the time.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think it's time for Muslim bashers to admit they were duped.

I would love to. But the reason to believe in such a thing keeps refusing to materialize.

This was all ploy devised by the powers that be, the same ones that manipulate the media on a daily basis and create the news, not report it. They needed a scapegoat, a group that people could get mad at.

You believe in that? I fear you will be disappointed in a serious way.

 

[LuisDantas]

I should perhaps mention that I am Canadian. Our military personnel are nothing like ISIS.

The difference between the military in the West, and ISIS, is that we don't deliberately make a point of killing civilians. We don't terrorize them by rounding up the men and boys and killing them, and forcing the marriageable women and girls into slavery. We aren't attempting to exterminate Islamic populations whose theology we don't recognize, which is what ISIS is doing. I could go on. A chasm separates the "garden variety national military" in the West from the likes of ISIS.

Does it? I hope you are correct. But I still see people way too attached to false certainties derived from Nationalism, and far too much casual acceptance of air bombings and military action in general.

ISIS, as I figure it, is simply convinced that their cruelty furthers the cause of God. I do not feel at all reassured that there is a lot else separating them from anyone else.

 

[Marsh]

Does it? I hope you are correct.

On this I know I am correct. I don't know how you can think otherwise. There is no comparing ISIS to the military forces of the Western powers.

... and far too much casual acceptance of air bombings and military action in general.

Exactly how do you propose ISIS be stopped, if not through military action? Or maybe you think they don't need to be stopped?

ISIS, as I figure it, is simply convinced that their cruelty furthers the cause of God.

More precisely they are hardliners who follow the Koran to the letter. They cross every t and dot every i.

I do not feel at all reassured that there is a lot else separating them from anyone else.

I know you are probably familiar with the litany of atrocities these people commit. How can you possibly think little separates you and myself from them?

 

[LuisDantas]

On this I know I am correct. I don't know how you can think otherwise.

On that you are mistaken. I do think otherwise.

There is no comparing ISIS to the military forces of the Western powers.

I beg to differ.

Exactly how do you propose ISIS be stopped, if not through military action? Or maybe you think they don't need to be stopped?

They must be stopped, no doubt. But military action is of no help there. As one would expect, since it interprets it as challlenges to prove their worth and commitment.

Instead, it is necessary to challenge their ideologies and shame them out of their fanaticism. The price will be high, of course. But there is ultimately no painless way of containing their damage.

More precisely they are hardliners who follow the Koran to the letter. They cross every t and dot every i.

Probably.

I know you are probably familiar with the litany of atrocities these people commit. How can you possibly think little separates you and myself from them?

I am aware of what war does.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Since the Quran is free from corruption and the others are sort of maybe not, why not just go with the real thing? Seems like the extra's should be optional.

Because the authentic Ahaadeeth are also the real thing and a very useful additional source of guidance.

 

[Sunstone]

That's like saying I bash Christianity not Christians. How can I bash the concepts that you submit to without bashing you as well

Self-identifying with one's beliefs is spiritually unskillful. There is no other word for it. It is all but inevitably a cause of suffering and harm for oneself, and it can even lead one to inflicting suffering or harm on others. Beyond that, it is spiritually immature. Some people will tell you that self-identifying with one's believes is either necessary or desirable, but they are like children telling an adult that eating sugar is necessary or desirable. The follies -- and even crimes -- that each and every day are motivated by self-identification with one's beliefs are too numerous to even begin to tally. At least that is what I have seen of such foolishness.

 

[blue taylor]

Because the authentic Ahaadeeth are also the real thing and a very useful additional source of guidance.

Guidance for what? Is not the Quran enough? It reminds me of the letters of Paul. Jesus came first and gave us his version of the good news. Paul came later and gave us another version, but Christianity blended the original with the fake. Is it wrong to use only the Quran and nothing else?

 

[YmirGF]

Self-identifying with one's beliefs is spiritually unskillful. There is no other word for it. It is all but inevitably a cause of suffering and harm for oneself, and it can even lead one to inflicting suffering or harm on others. Beyond that, it is spiritually immature. Some people will tell you that self-identifying with one's believes is either necessary or desirable, but they are like children telling an adult that eating sugar is necessary or desirable. The follies -- and even crimes -- that each and every day are motivated by self-identification with one's beliefs are too numerous to even begin to tally. At least that is what I have seen of such foolishness.

A totalitarian and supremacist worldview necessarily includes the individual, so if you attack the ideology believers in such an ideology take it personally.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Guidance for what? Is not the Quran enough? It reminds me of the letters of Paul. Jesus came first and gave us his version of the good news. Paul came later and gave us another version, but Christianity blended the original with the fake. Is it wrong to use only the Quran and nothing else?

Guidance as to how we should live our lives. No, for me, the Qur'aan is not enough. Is it wrong to use only the Qur'aan and nothing else? - No.

 

[Marsh]

On that you are mistaken. I do think otherwise.

I don't question that you actually believe there is little difference between ISIS and the military forces of the West, I just don't understand how you can think such a thing. ISIS makes brutality policy. Taking slaves is policy. Forcing women and girls into sex slavery is policy. I could go on. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Brits, Germans, French, etc. just don't do these things. There is no similarity between us and them and claiming there is just makes a mockery of the truth.

You acknowledge that ISIS needs to be stopped so you must recognize their atrocities are on a far grander scale than the isolated incidents reported among Western armies during times of war.

 

[Marsh]

They must be stopped, no doubt. But military action is of no help there. As one would expect, since it interprets it as challlenges to prove their worth and commitment.

Instead, it is necessary to challenge their ideologies and shame them out of their fanaticism. The price will be high, of course. But there is ultimately no painless way of containing their damage.

Probably.

I am aware of what war does.

How would you propose to shame them into inaction?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't question that you actually believe there is little difference between ISIS and the military forces of the West, I just don't understand how you can think such a thing. ISIS makes brutality policy. Taking slaves is policy. Forcing women and girls into sex slavery is policy. I could go on. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Brits, Germans, French, etc. just don't do these things. There is no similarity between us and them and claiming there is just makes a mockery of the truth.

I so disagree. The scary thing is how closely similar we are.

You acknowledge that ISIS needs to be stopped so you must recognize their atrocities are on a far grander scale than the isolated incidents reported among Western armies during times of war.

Yep. But that can hardly be done in a defensible way by resorting to bombs and firearms.

 

[LuisDantas]

How would you propose to shame them into inaction?

We need ground work. On an anthropological, sociological, political level.

 

[blue taylor]

Guidance as to how we should live our lives. No, for me, the Qur'aan is not enough. Is it wrong to use only the Qur'aan and nothing else? - No.

Do you condemn those that use only the Quran?

 

[Marsh]

We need ground work. On an anthropological, sociological, political level.

Re-education? I can see that working on individuals, but not on an entire society.