Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[JFish123]

Getting hurt and angry is about throwing tantrums because you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you haven't made a vow...you can't break it. If you neglect to make a vow, the outcome is the same as it is for all unbelievers. It isn't rocket science. Those who treat a vow as of little consequence have no part with those of us who understands its importance and responsibilities.

A disassociation is a personal disfellowshipping. These ones have publicly declared that they no long accept the teachings of those whom we believe direct God's earthly organization. According to scripture, there are just two tables at which we all feed (1 Cor 10:20, 21).....one is Jehovah's table which is served by his "faithful and discreet slave" and the other is the table of demons. (Matt 24:45-47) That which is not serve at Jehovah's table must of necessity come from the other table. The food might have an appealing appearance, but it is spiritual poison. Partaking of that table precludes one from partaking at the other. You can't have it both ways.

John's words dictate our actions, regardless of what anyone else says or how horrible they want to make it appear....we will not compromise on this issue. We have made a clear separation from this world and any who want to have a foot in both camps will be made aware of the differentiation. (2 John 8-11) A choice will have to be made.

The faithful discreet slave is not the Watchtower. Your are believing a LIE dude. You try to rationalize not talking to family members because an organization claims only it is directed by God so if they say you can't talk to your own family you believe them and make excuses to why it's ok. That is sooooo messed up man. You can fumble through scripture trying to pick out reasons why it's ok but it's a Lie straight from Hell. I hope the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and your heart to know the people your trusting with your soul, are leading you straight to hell.

 

[JFish123]

I am not angry......just used to people airing their dirty laundry as if their sob story must of necessity apply to all of JW's.
As a people we are a global brotherhood. The few who let the side down are not representative of the majority. Jehovah knows who belongs to him. Sometimes humans behave as if he cannot see what they think, let alone how they behave behind closed doors. We are not label wearers, which is why you cannot "join" Jehovah's Witnesses. You have to choose to become one by accepting all the rules that God himself places on Christ's followers. Baptism can only take place on the understanding that you are making a dedication to the Creator of the universe who tolerates no deviation from his laws. It's a bit like a marriage. No one stands over the bride and groom forcing them to make a vow to each other. They do this of their own volition. When they wish to get a divorce for whatever reason, they have to have grounds to dissolve that legally binding arrangement. Why would a vow to God be any different? How many ex's stay friends and still want to hang out with each other? They usually go their separate ways. Why is that so unusual?

I have explained in detail why we disfellowship individuals and how we see those who disassociate. There is a difference between those who "fade away" and those who publicly announce that they are no longer wanting to be associated with Jehovah's Witnesses. Dissassociation is the same as person disfellowshipping. The only difference is that we did not kick the offender out...they left of their own accord. Since we see that as a defection, we no longer desire fellowship with that person, just as they no longer desire fellowship with us. Why is that even surprising?

The Governing Body is NOT God! And yet you equate the two as the same! Blasphemy! Leaving an ORGANIZATION from the EARTHLY realm does NOT equate to leaving God in the SPIRITUAL realm. Stop putting your eternal soul in mans hands! In an organizations! It is God ALONE.

 

[JayJayDee]

But where I disagree is when it comes to family. Just because I left of my parents house does not mean I don't want to see them anymore. Just as if a person wishes to leaves the organization does not mean that they don't want to associate with their family. If it was just spiritual fellowship then I would understand that.

Since we do not really differentiate spiritual family from fleshly family, as Jesus said, our mother and brothers and sisters are those who share our faith....not those who are merely related by birth. (Matt 12:47-50)

Blood relatives could in fact become our worst enemies, according to Jesus....our spiritual relatives could become just as vicious if they defect from our family and rebel at the discipline. (Matt10:34-37)

A family could always get together and not have to bring religion into it, but I am afraid that I will always disagree with avoiding any association with on who disassociates/leaves the organization. Could you please explain you comment "We are not label wearers, which is why you cannot "join" Jehovah's Witnesses.", I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this.

It means that we don't just call ourselves Jehovah's Witnesses. We don't put on the label and then do whatever we like. "Doing the will of the Father" means so much more than whether we talk to or fellowship with family members who have made it clear that they do not share our spiritual values. We know what the rules are before we ever make our commitment. If you change your mind...there is no 'exit clause' in a vow, made of our own free will.
If Jehovah takes a dim view of this, then so do we.

Since those who "are not of our sort" can also be fleshly family members who "went out from us" we do not seek close relationships with those who do not uphold Jesus' teachings, and who in all likelihood, could even subtly subvert our faith.

If you put "defection" into a political context, then shunning that individual, even if they were a family member, would not solicit any sympathy for the defector. Having brought ostracism upon themselves by their own conduct, why are people surprised when we follow the Bible's counsel to stop associating with those who have defected from the Christian congregation and who no longer share our love for Jehovah? They are kicked out of the congregation just as a political defector is evicted from the country as a traitor.
The fact that they could be adult family members who have made their choices, means nothing when our own loyalty could be called into question if we continue to associate with them.

If you wish to rewrite the Bible to accommodate your wishes...then I can't see that happening any time soon...can you?

One fact stands out very clearly with all the EX-JW's there are in the world.....with all the hate sites exposing us as the most dreadful people in existence........but they have never formed themselves into a global brotherhood of true believers who are out "preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus instructed.....why? Because Jesus is not backing them up. All they have become is a nation of whiners and complainers, just like the Israelites were in the wilderness. They have good nutritious spiritual food available to them in abundance as God promised, but they don't like the taste of it. They have refreshing waters of truth, but they prefer to drink from the polluted wells of this world.

In this time of the end, there will be no excuses. All living when Jesus comes as judge will account for their faith or lack of it. They will have supported Christ's brothers or they will have neglected to do so.
They will be found on the cramped and narrow road to life or they will be on the broad road to death. The only person who puts us in one or the other of those categories...is Jesus. What is the criteria? "Doing the will of the Father" and offering assistance to Christ's brothers.​

 

[JFish123]

Since we do not really differentiate spiritual family from fleshly family, as Jesus said, our mother and brothers and sisters are those who share our faith....not those who are merely related by birth. (Matt 12:47-50)

Blood relatives could in fact become our worst enemies, according to Jesus....our spiritual relatives could become just as vicious if they defect from our family and rebel at the discipline. (Matt10:34-37)



It means that we don't just call ourselves Jehovah's Witnesses. We don't put on the label and then do whatever we like. "Doing the will of the Father" means so much more than whether we talk to or fellowship with family members who have made it clear that they do not share our spiritual values. We know what the rules are before we ever make our commitment. If you change your mind...there is no 'exit clause' in a vow, made of our own free will.
If Jehovah takes a dim view of this, then so do we.

Since those who "are not of our sort" can also be fleshly family members who "went out from us" we do not seek close relationships with those who do not uphold Jesus' teachings, and who in all likelihood, could even subtly subvert our faith.

If you put "defection" into a political context, then shunning that individual, even if they were a family member, would not solicit any sympathy for the defector. Having brought ostracism upon themselves by their own conduct, why are people surprised when we follow the Bible's counsel to stop associating with those who have defected from the Christian congregation and who no longer share our love for Jehovah? They are kicked out of the congregation just as a political defector is evicted from the country as a traitor.
The fact that they could be adult family members who have made their choices, means nothing when our own loyalty could be called into question if we continue to associate with them.

If you wish to rewrite the Bible to accommodate your wishes...then I can't see that happening any time soon...can you?

One fact stands out very clearly with all the EX-JW's there are in the world.....with all the hate sites exposing us as the most dreadful people in existence........but they have never formed themselves into a global brotherhood of true believers who are out "preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus instructed.....why? Because Kesus is not backing them up. All they have become is a nation of whiners and complainers, just like the Israelites were in the wilderness. They have good nutritious spiritual food available to them in abundance as God promised, but they don't like the taste of it. They have refreshing waters of truth, but they prefer to drink from the polluted wells of this world.

In this time of the end, there will be no excuses. All living when Jesus comes as judge will account for their faith or lack of it. They will have supported Christ's brothers or they will have neglected to do so.
They will be found on the cramped and narrow road to life or they will be on the broad road to death. The only person who puts us in one or the other of those categories...is Jesus. What is the criteria? "Doing the will of the Father" and offering assistance to Christ's brothers.​

Ummmm... The problem with your theory is that there are ex-JW's who do give their lives to Christ and DO help people and spread the message of Christ. You can't see that because if you did, then your view that The Watchtower is the SOLE one that God backs would be falsified.

 

[JFish123]

Since we do not really differentiate spiritual family from fleshly family, as Jesus said, our mother and brothers and sisters are those who share our faith....not those who are merely related by birth. (Matt 12:47-50)

Blood relatives could in fact become our worst enemies, according to Jesus....our spiritual relatives could become just as vicious if they defect from our family and rebel at the discipline. (Matt10:34-37)



It means that we don't just call ourselves Jehovah's Witnesses. We don't put on the label and then do whatever we like. "Doing the will of the Father" means so much more than whether we talk to or fellowship with family members who have made it clear that they do not share our spiritual values. We know what the rules are before we ever make our commitment. If you change your mind...there is no 'exit clause' in a vow, made of our own free will.
If Jehovah takes a dim view of this, then so do we.

Since those who "are not of our sort" can also be fleshly family members who "went out from us" we do not seek close relationships with those who do not uphold Jesus' teachings, and who in all likelihood, could even subtly subvert our faith.

If you put "defection" into a political context, then shunning that individual, even if they were a family member, would not solicit any sympathy for the defector. Having brought ostracism upon themselves by their own conduct, why are people surprised when we follow the Bible's counsel to stop associating with those who have defected from the Christian congregation and who no longer share our love for Jehovah? They are kicked out of the congregation just as a political defector is evicted from the country as a traitor.
The fact that they could be adult family members who have made their choices, means nothing when our own loyalty could be called into question if we continue to associate with them.

If you wish to rewrite the Bible to accommodate your wishes...then I can't see that happening any time soon...can you?

One fact stands out very clearly with all the EX-JW's there are in the world.....with all the hate sites exposing us as the most dreadful people in existence........but they have never formed themselves into a global brotherhood of true believers who are out "preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus instructed.....why? Because Jesus is not backing them up. All they have become is a nation of whiners and complainers, just like the Israelites were in the wilderness. They have good nutritious spiritual food available to them in abundance as God promised, but they don't like the taste of it. They have refreshing waters of truth, but they prefer to drink from the polluted wells of this world.

In this time of the end, there will be no excuses. All living when Jesus comes as judge will account for their faith or lack of it. They will have supported Christ's brothers or they will have neglected to do so.
They will be found on the cramped and narrow road to life or they will be on the broad road to death. The only person who puts us in one or the other of those categories...is Jesus. What is the criteria? "Doing the will of the Father" and offering assistance to Christ's brothers.​

Is there any justification for the practice of shunning a family member or church member?

While shunning often connotes legalistic tendencies, there is a proper place for breaking an association. The Bible teaches excommunication as a form of church discipline. In 1 Timothy 1:20, the apostle Paul said he had handed Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. The two blasphemers had been excluded from the church. Out in the world, away from the church, they would be open to the full force of the god of that worldly system.
In 2 Timothy 2:17–18, we discover what these men did to warrant expulsion from the church: they had "denounced the physical resurrection" (sounds like a Jehovahs Witness theology) and were dividing the church by teaching an early form of the heresy of Gnosticism. This was no misdemeanor or petty sin. Such drastic action as excommunication is always a last resort and should never be taken so lightly.

 

[psychoslice]

How do you define cult?

A group of people who cultivate a belief system, and telling all its members that they are the true religion.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

If we break the law of the land, we expect a penalty...why do we expect less when someone breaks the laws of God?
If we failed to treat them any differently, what would be the incentive for change? It is God's word that recommends discipline.

If one of your family members broke the law of the land and was penalized for it, would you still talk to him/her?

The GB has over 1700 rules and regulations for the JW's, how many does God add on to that?

 

[james2ko]

True... man makes mistakes. But some mistakes are motivated by greed, ambition, pride.... when church leaders burn people at the stake for disagreeing with their dogma, it is no longer an innocent mistake.

1. Very true. Men are mistake prone. Making it possible for Rutherford to have started his own church under one, two, or all three of these motivations.

A literal fulfilment did occur in ancient times. Back then the kingdom of God was represented by an earthly king... so yes, it did initially have a literal fufillment.

Zec 8:3 "And now the LORD says: I am returning [the Hebrew term "shoob" denotes returning to a place He once left!] to Mount Zion [where His feet will touch-Zec 14:4], and I will live [and reign-Jer 3:17, and many other verses] in Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the Faithful City; the mountain of the LORD of Heaven's Armies will be called the Holy Mountain.
Zec 8:4 "This is what the LORD of Heaven's Armies says: Once again old men and women will walk Jerusalem's streets with their canes and will sit together in the city squares.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls at play.
Zec 8:4 "This is what the LORD of Heaven's Armies says: Once again old men and women will walk Jerusalem's streets with their canes and will sit together in the city squares.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls at play.
Zec 8:4 "This is what the LORD of Heaven's Armies says: Once again old men and women will walk Jerusalem's streets with their canes and will sit together in the city squares.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls at play.
Zec 8:6 "This is what the LORD of Heaven's Armies says: All this may seem impossible to you now, a small remnant of God's people. But is it impossible for Me? says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. (NLT)​

2. Zecariah's audience were Jews returning to Jerusalem from Babylon. In verse six, Zecariah implies verses 1-5 are an impossibility to the remnant of God's people then. But Jehovah rhetorically asks them what I've been asking you, "Is it impossible for Him to return to live and dwell in their midst on Mt Zion? His rhetorical answer is NO!. He will return to live and dwell with them and make all of this come to pass when Christ's feet touch Mt Zion and He returns to dwell in the city!

Jerusalem was never considered a faithful city [city of truth] or ever called "Holy Mountain" after returning from captivity. It certainly was not a faithful city in the first century, as only approximately 5% of the population were affiliated with the various religious sects.

It is definitely not that way now as evidenced by their annual Gay Pride Parade. If this prophecy had a literal initial fulfillment in ancient times, when did Jehovah return to dwell there and call it a Faithful City and Holy Mountain?

"Could and would never" What????? Can you rephrase that.... i dont think these words belong in the same sentence.

3. Would and could are auxiliary verbs. Would is used to express the future in past sentences. Could is used to express conditional possibility or ability. Example: Jehovah inspired the prophets to write He could and would dwell and rule on earth in the future.

Now back to the question. Utilizing the law of non-contradiction, find me two scriptures that contradict Jesus could and would never dwell and rule on earth in the future?

I realize point 3 in my last reply was a little embarrassing for you . But as Jesus sometimes did with the Pharisees, I had to expose your illogical doctrinal bias.

Since you did not address point five in my last reply, I assume you can see (but your pride will never allow you to admit) that based on its grammar, John 14:19 and Revelation 1:7 cannot be contradictory, as the WT claims. I urge you to study the bible and its grammar on your own. It's ok to use the WT, and I'm not suggesting you leave them. Every human organization, including my own, has doctrinal flaws. Just make sure you be a Berean and verify what they say is true. As has been demonstrated, sometimes it isn't.

 

[Pegg]

A group of people who cultivate a belief system, and telling all its members that they are the true religion.

Wow , so basically every religion can be defined as a cult in your view.

I dont think that definition is really what a cult is. Usually a cult has a human leader who convinces the group that he/she is a saviour and they exclude themselves from society, become very secretive and the leader uses some brainwashing or mind control techniques to instil fear and submission...a lot of sexual abuse by the leader is also very common with real cults.

I cant say any of this has been true of Jehovahs witnesses...and i've been one for 20 years now.

What has been your experience with our organisation?

 

[Pegg]

Therein lies the problem. The religion will brainwash its members into thinking this way of even their own family members. They are told to cut ties with their own children if they are dissfellowshipped, or risk being dissfellowshiped themselves.

Thats actually quite false.

We are not told to cut off disfellowshipped
family members at all. Our immediate family will always require our communication. The wt says that we will always need to have contact due to important family matters that may arise. The only contact we avoid is spiritual and social contact. A disfellowshipped person has broken Gods law and refused to repent.
When they selfishly behave this way we choose to remain loyal to Jehovah by upholding the law thats been broken....how we do this is by refusing to support the bad behaviour of the sinner. If we did support them, then we become a sharer in their wicked works. Our love for God prompts this action... and this is in harmony with Jesus directive that we must love God first and foremost.

 

[savagewind]

Thats actually quite false.

We are not told to cut off disfellowshipped
family members at all. Our immediate family will always require our communication. The wt says that we will always need to have contact due to important family matters that may arise. The only contact we avoid is spiritual and social contact. A disfellowshipped person has broken Gods law and refused to repent.
When they selfishly behave this way we choose to remain loyal to Jehovah by upholding the law thats been broken....how we do this is by refusing to support the bad behaviour of the sinner. If we did support them, then we become a sharer in their wicked works. Our love for God prompts this action... and this is in harmony with Jesus directive that we must love God first and foremost.

OK. Good retort. But if there is never any family business then there is no reason to ever see him or her again.

Define bad behavior - To disagree with any edict from the governing body.

Please show us where the love of God means the love of the faithful and discreet slave.

 

[savagewind]

Please prove that the love of God means to strictly adhere to the written word which has been attributed to God.

21 David later came to Nob to A·him′e·lech the priest. A·him′e·lech began to tremble when he met David, and he said to him: “Why are you by yourself and no one is with you?”2 David replied to A·him′e·lech the priest: “The king instructed me to do something, but he said, ‘Do not let anyone know anything about the mission on which I am sending you and about the instructions I have given you.’ I made an appointment with my young men to meet at a certain place.3 Now if there are five loaves of bread at your disposal, just give them to me, or whatever is available.”4 But the priest answered David: “There is no ordinary bread on hand, but there is holy bread—provided that the young men have kept away from women.”*5 David answered the priest: “Women have certainly been kept away from us as on previous occasions when I went out on a campaign.+ If the bodies of the young men are holy even when the mission is ordinary, how much more so today should they be holy!”6 So the priest gave him the holy bread,+ because there was no bread there except the showbread, which had been removed from Jehovah’s presence to be replaced by fresh bread on the day it was taken away.

Matthew 12:3, 4
3 He said to them: “Have you not read what David did when he and the men with him were hungry? 4 How he entered into the house of God and they ate the loaves of presentation, something that it was not lawful for him or those with him to eat, but for the priests only?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

A disfellowshipped person has broken Gods law and refused to repent.

Is this actually true? For which of the following was Ray Franz disfellowshiped?

Gal 5:18-21 (ESVST) 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[averageJOE]

Thats actually quite false.

We are not told to cut off disfellowshipped
family members at all. Our immediate family will always require our communication. The wt says that we will always need to have contact due to important family matters that may arise. The only contact we avoid is spiritual and social contact. A disfellowshipped person has broken Gods law and refused to repent.
When they selfishly behave this way we choose to remain loyal to Jehovah by upholding the law thats been broken....how we do this is by refusing to support the bad behaviour of the sinner. If we did support them, then we become a sharer in their wicked works. Our love for God prompts this action... and this is in harmony with Jesus directive that we must love God first and foremost.

Again...

They just make a small exception for those family who happen to live in the same house.

And to add, disfellowsipped people not always break gods law, they break the rules of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Big difference.

 

[savagewind]

Is this actually true? For which of the following was Ray Franz disfellowshiped?

Gal 5:18-21 (ESVST) 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Actually I think they feared he was their rival and would cause dissensions. Of course, they did the disfellowshipping BEFORE he might do that or be that.

 

[savagewind]

r

Again...

They just make a small exception for those family who happen to live in the same house.

And to add, disfellowsipped people not always break gods law, they break the rules of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Big difference.

I agree! One woman in particular I met online who was disfellowshipped for disagreeing with them that Jesus arrived invisiably in 1914. I think she has never seen her grand -babies. If I was a faithful JW I think I would not be able to believe her story. But I am not and I know that they teach lots of Bible errors with no hope in sight of ever changing it to be in harmony with Isaiah 1:18.

For instance they teach that love is not provoked but also teach that God has destroyed people with their children and will destroy everyone except the people who will obey the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have asked them a few times WHO will organize paradise after the men of the faithful and discreet slave have been raised to Heaven but nobody has an answer to that.

 

[e.r.m.]

How do you define cult?

What are your thoughts on this comment from someone else?

Policy means rules. They have rules that they must obey to be considered Jehovah's Witnesses. They have rules to starve their loved ones of love so that those who wish to leave will beg their way back. This is what they are being taught to do. It is not considered by them a choice. If they don't obey the rules then they will be treated coldly by most other JWs.

 

[e.r.m.]

This is why JWs are making enemies of people. They say that when a person is baptized their vow is to the organization so if she leaves she has broken her vow. Jesus says let your yes mean yes so saying no is disobeying Jesus Christ. But baptism is to God in Jesus Christ name. If baptism really was to the organization then all those who were baptized before the organization are not really baptized. It is WRONG, wrong, wrong for them to say that if a person leaves the organization it is the same as leaving Jehovah.

I agree as well.

 

[e.r.m.]

The faithful discreet slave is not the Watchtower. Your are believing a LIE dude. You try to rationalize not talking to family members because an organization claims only it is directed by God so if they say you can't talk to your own family you believe them and make excuses to why it's ok. That is sooooo messed up man. You can fumble through scripture trying to pick out reasons why it's ok but it's a Lie straight from Hell. I hope the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and your heart to know the people your trusting with your soul, are leading you straight to hell.

Beliefs create culture. When people believe they are the only church who teaches the truth then leaving the church would be equivalent to a disciple in the 1st century abandoning the church and deciding to make it just between them and God. It would be fallacious. This leads to treating the abandoner like an outsider or as a subverter. This happens in the same way that the belief of the sinner's prayer salvation method leads to altar calls. Different root beliefs create different cultures around them. JWs err in many root beliefs. One of them is to turn a cold shoulder towards the abandoner. First century disciples wouldn't do that. They would pray for them, beseech them, and love them. The cold shoulder is of the JWs own making.

This does not make them a cult though, just grievously wrong.

 

[averageJOE]

You have to choose to become one by accepting all the rules that God himself places on Christ's followers. Baptism can only take place on the understanding that you are making a dedication to the Creator of the universe who tolerates no deviation from his laws.

The Governing Body is NOT God! And yet you equate the two as the same! Blasphemy! Leaving an ORGANIZATION from the EARTHLY realm does NOT equate to leaving God in the SPIRITUAL realm. Stop putting your eternal soul in mans hands! In an organizations! It is God ALONE.

I should add that JW's even changed question 2 in their baptism vows in 1985.

1966: (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

1970: (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it plain?

1985: (2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

They felt the need to add "organization". JW's are making a vow to a mulit-million dollar, man-made, earthly corporation.