How do Jews feel about their theology seeming to be outdated?

[Zog Has-fallen]

We actually do understand what you are saying Mr. Zog. We are just telling you that your premise is incorrect and the calculation based on that premise is not inherently wrong, but wrong by extension of the premise.

Thank you. It was kind of you to acknowledge that conclusions depend upon presuppositions and that my reasoning "is not inherently wrong." The fault, you affirm, lies in my premise. And just so everyone understands our agreement, that premise you reject is how the Sabbath is defined in your Tanakh.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I believe it’s fair to say that all Christians recognize the incredible theological transition that happened between the Old and the New Testament. For example, Article 10 in The Millerite Adventist Creed says:

Many of God's Old Testament laws (Exodus 12:1-28, Leviticus 16) and covenants (Genesis 17:1-14, Exodus 31:12-18, Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 9:9,11, Ezekiel 20:12,20) emphasized symbolic rites that foreshadowed a new paradigm of unexpected spiritual truths (Luke 22:14-20, Matthew 26:26-29, Luke 12:1, Mark 8:15, Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11-12, 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, 1 Peter 3:21, Revelation 14:7, etc.).

Examples

Indisputably, God once said, "My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:1-14). And the Sabbath command seems just as inviolable from an Old Testament perspective. But the New Testament clearly spiritualizes and reinterprets their original meanings.

Romans 2:29
"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

Likewise, the Sabbath is interpreted in the New Testament (Hebrews 4:9) as a type of God's rest that we should enter into 24/seven.

Hebrews 4:1-3,10-11
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest ...

10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

What is surprising and irrefutable (because of Shubert's International Date Line Theorem) is that it's impossible to define the Sabbath day on a round planet. So the unmistakable conclusion seems to be that God purposely planned and inserted obsolescence into the Old Covenant.

Just about every religion has changed. While many of the scriptures stay the same, many don't practice it. Jews today aren't the same as they were a thousand years ago. This applies, to Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, various Pagan faiths ect. So really just about all of them have changed, not just Judaism.

 

[columbus]

Just about every religion has changed. While many of the scriptures stay the same, many don't practice it. Jews today aren't the same as they were a thousand years ago. This applies, to Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, various Pagan faiths ect. So really just about all of them have changed, not just Judaism.

You left out Islam.
Not all Muslims are as ethically primitive as the most vocal and violent fundamentalists.
Tom

 

[Theweirdtophat]

You left out Islam.
Not all Muslims are as ethically primitive as the most vocal and violent fundamentalists.
Tom

I didn't leave out Islam. I said just about every religion has changed. In terms of their rules and behavior. They had their virtues and vices back then just like we do today. You'll see violent Muslims and you'll see peaceful Muslims. That applies to almost every religion.

 

[Nietzsche]

I am kind of in awe of the relentless idiocy of this. It never fails to amuse me when non-Jews graniloquently and condescendingly inform Jews that we're doing it wrong, and (surprise, surprise) only some non-Jew has the answer to "how to Judaism correctly."

ssshhh...let him have this. You own everything else already, damn it!

 

[columbus]

I didn't leave out Islam.

Yes you did. That is why I posted what I did.
Tom

 

[viole]

I believe it’s fair to say that all Christians recognize the incredible theological transition that happened between the Old and the New Testament. For example, Article 10 in The Millerite Adventist Creed says:

Many of God's Old Testament laws (Exodus 12:1-28, Leviticus 16) and covenants (Genesis 17:1-14, Exodus 31:12-18, Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 9:9,11, Ezekiel 20:12,20) emphasized symbolic rites that foreshadowed a new paradigm of unexpected spiritual truths (Luke 22:14-20, Matthew 26:26-29, Luke 12:1, Mark 8:15, Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11-12, 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, 1 Peter 3:21, Revelation 14:7, etc.).

Examples

Indisputably, God once said, "My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:1-14). And the Sabbath command seems just as inviolable from an Old Testament perspective. But the New Testament clearly spiritualizes and reinterprets their original meanings.

Romans 2:29
"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

Likewise, the Sabbath is interpreted in the New Testament (Hebrews 4:9) as a type of God's rest that we should enter into 24/seven.

Hebrews 4:1-3,10-11
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest ...

10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

What is surprising and irrefutable (because of Shubert's International Date Line Theorem) is that it's impossible to define the Sabbath day on a round planet. So the unmistakable conclusion seems to be that God purposely planned and inserted obsolescence into the Old Covenant.

I thought that one day is like 1000 years to the Lord (more like 2,000,000,000, according to latest measurements). That is a hell of weekend if we have to keep one of them.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Yes you did. That is why I posted what I did.
Tom

I also didn't mention Jainism or Shinto either. But this applies to them. And I said specifically that just about every religion has changed. ect. That includes Islam. It wouldn't make sense if I listed just about every religion now would it?

But yeah, Abrahamic faiths, Dharmic, Oriental, Pagan ect.

 

[rosends]

And just so everyone understands our agreement, that premise you reject is how the Sabbath is defined in your Tanakh.

Everyone understands that your premise is defined by your limited understanding of Judaism and the complete Torah. When you begin with a false conception, you end up with a false conclusion.

 

[columbus]

I also didn't mention Jainism or Shinto either. But this applies to them. And I said specifically that just about every religion has changed. ect. That includes Islam. It wouldn't make sense if I listed just about every religion now would it?

But yeah, Abrahamic faiths, Dharmic, Oriental, Pagan ect.

You included Shinto, but not Islam.
Surely you can see why I pointed this out.
Tom

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

Everyone understands that your premise is defined by your limited understanding of Judaism and the complete Torah. When you begin with a false conception, you end up with a false conclusion.

As I've already explained, the mathematical theorem is based on the definition of the Sabbath as given in the Tanakh. Judaism has no power over the obvious meaning of that text. Furthermore, weren't all my quotes from the Torah?

 

[metis]

What is surprising and irrefutable (because of Shubert's International Date Line Theorem) is that it's impossible to define the Sabbath day on a round planet. So the unmistakable conclusion seems to be that God purposely planned and inserted obsolescence into the Old Covenant.

It makes not one iota of difference in this case since the day being referred to only had its original meaning as it applied to eretz Israel and not any other location. For us supposedly not to know which day of the week was and is the Sabbath is to conclude that we are such dolts that we can't even count to seven.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Its the year 2015. When traveling, all one would have to do is check their phones calender which would update to the correct local time for whereever you are.

And if one wanted to follow Yerushalim time, they could check their phones too.

No need to count sunsets.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

It makes not one iota of difference in this case since the day being referred to only had its original meaning as it applied to eretz Israel and not any other location.

I'm surprised to hear to you say that the location of the first instance of Sabbath keeping in the Torah is in Eretz Yisrael.

 

[metis]

I'm surprised to hear to you say that the location of the first instance of Sabbath keeping in the Torah is in Eretz Yisrael.

I didn't say that it was first given there as our tradition has it that we first were ordered to follow it in the Sinai, but we moved from there to eretz Israel.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

Its the year 2015. When traveling, all one would have to do is check their phones calender which would update to the correct local time for whereever you are.

So which day would your smart phone tell you it was if you were standing on the International Date Line? Moving just a nanometer east or west would change your calendar day a whole 24 hours.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

I didn't say that it was first given there as our tradition has it that we first were ordered to follow it in the Sinai, but we moved from there to eretz Israel.

Are the Jews that live in New York delighted that they're not obligated to keep the Sabbath, since you say it's only for those living in Eretz Yisrael?

 

[Skwim]

I could be persuaded to produce it if it was made worth my while. But it would require producing easily readable equations with a math editor and then saving the document as a PDF file. Shubert knows how to do this. See The Quintessence of Axiomatized Special Relativity Theory.

Fine, then copy his work (print screen if necessary). OR, give us the URL to the page where this "cute exercise in Algebra 1" resides. It sure doesn't seem to be in The Quintessence of Axiomatized Special Relativity Theory, but if it is, simply give us the page number and a notation as to where it begins.

Thanks.

 

[Akivah]

The riddle concerns Jewish travelers leaving town for good, going east and west from Jerusalem, at the end of Passion Week. I believe it's safe to say that they didn't carry any watches or clocks with them.

And the riddle requires that the Jews meeting up half way around the world, met at a place that had no other Jews there, that let them know when Shabbat was starting at local time.

In other words, the riddle requires a set of contrived circumstances that could never exist in real life. And then you wonder how Judaism in reality has survived and kept Shabbat??

Contrived riddles don't set policy.

 

[4consideration]

Are the Jews that live in New York delighted that they're not obligated to keep the Sabbath, since you say it's only for those living in Eretz Yisrael?

I don't see where that member said that at all. Please show me what words were actually said that you think equals that.