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Is Hamas Being Delusional?

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's providing valuable information and I am grateful for it.

It's also a bit confusing, because it is mixing up theological ideas with political ones. Valuable info to an extent, but the argument ends up looking like if you criticize Israel you're anti-Semitic...apples and oranges stuff imo.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
It's also a bit confusing, because it is mixing up theological ideas with political ones. Valuable info to an extent, but the argument ends up looking like if you criticize Israel you're anti-Semitic...apples and oranges stuff imo.

He's just spamming crap from fundie sites. Just your typical anti-Catholic bigotry. Those quotes may not even be real. Anyway, I have him on ignore.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It is more about Christian Zionismm and antizionism.
Do you believe that Jews returning to rule and reign over Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy or not?
Do you believe that their return is of the Lord or not?


What is "Zionism", who is "their" etc. These questions are not clear cut and they don't indicate anything about my views, even if I answered them. That's my point, this is simply irrelevant to what I've stated in this thread.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Hamas started the recent trouble by firing rockets into Israel from Gaza, which was a totally stupid waste of time because they did hardly any damage.
 

Brickjectivity

Brick Block
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a great day while sittin' back in a Lazy Boy chair in the west eigh? A bit different for peace loving folks in places like Nigeria or the Sudan. Maybe your planning your next vacation to Syria. Lots of "good things" going on there.
As usual some people are suffering terribly, and some other people are sitting around eating. Getting back on topic, the situation in Nigeria is bad but hardly unusual. Now Israel is becoming a country again, which is interesting. Its interesting but that is all. Its not a sign of the 'Imminent return of Jesus.' There's no such warning or sign. You're supposed to just keep on keeping on. For all you know there could be another 5000 years left to go. This past 2000 years was a bit of a surprise, so another 2000 is possible.
 

Brickjectivity

Brick Block
Staff member
Premium Member
On the other hand, when the muslim world gets its hands on nukes, the end could come sooner than we think..;)
I don't know if you'd consider this fortunate or unfortunate, but the neutron bomb leaves the Earth basically clean after a few weeks and there is no long term fallout. Sure, the USA would probably be gone after a nuclear war, but the rest of the world would move on. Even Canada and Mexico might be ok. The more likely thing to destroy the world is global warming, surprisingly. There is a great deal of carbon stored in the Earth that was once in the atmosphere, and if it somehow leaks out too quickly we will experience disasters worse than a nuclear war, lasting much longer and much harder to survive. I'd give the USA a 90% of not getting nuked in the next 10 years; but it wouldn't be the end of the world if we did. We'd just...die. Stuff happens.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
What is "Zionism", who is "their" etc. These questions are not clear cut and they don't indicate anything about my views, even if I answered them. That's my point, this is simply irrelevant to what I've stated in this thread.

Zionism is a belief of the Jewish homeland in Israel .
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Zionism is a belief of the Jewish homeland in Israel .

Again, vague. So if Israel is totally corrupt, it's still cool? It seems you are simplifying these ideas into black & white concepts, they aren't.

Btw the Jewish Homeland is Israel, no need for the "theology" lesson.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Pope Saint Pius V: “With full understanding and in exercising of the apostolic powers, we withdraw from the Jews and their rule (and recognize no right or claim) all properties, which the Jews have in their possession in this city Rome or other places of our domain of rule.” (*** Nos Super)

Pope Paul IV: “It is too absurd and pointless that the Jews, whom their own guilt condemns to slavery, under the pretence that Christian piety suffers and tolerates their coexistence, pay back [with wickedness] the mercy received from Christians.” (*** Nimis Absurdum)

Pope Leo VII: “Let the Gospel be preached unto them and, if they remain obstinate, let them be expelled.”

Pope Adrian I at the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicea: “Since certain, erring in the superstitions of the Hebrews, have thought to mock at Christ our God, and feigning to be converted to the religion of Christ do deny him, and in private and secretly keep the Sabbath and observe other Jewish customs, we decree that such persons be not received to communion, nor to prayers, nor into the Church; but let them be openly Hebrew according to their religion, and let them not bring their children to baptism, nor purchase or possess a slave.”

Pope Innocent IV: “We who long with all our hearts for the salvation of souls, grant you full authority by these present letters to banish the Jews, either in your own person or through the agency of others, especially since, as we have been informed, they do not abide by the regulations drawn up for them by this Holy See.” (To the King of France)

Pope Saint Martin I: “If anyone shall teach a slave, under pretext of piety, to despise his master and to run away from his service, and not to serve his own master with good-will and all honour, let him be anathema.”

Pope Benedict XIV: “It is fitting for Jews to serve Christians, but not for Christians to serve Jews. On the contrary, the Jews, as slaves rejected by that Saviour Whose death they wickedly contrived, should recognize themselves in fact and in creed the slaves of those whom the death of Christ has set free, even as it has rendered them bondmen.” (Quoting Pope Innocent III, “Etsi Judaeos”)

Pope Gregory IX: “They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future become insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)

Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Ecumenical Council: “We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians - and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be slaves to Christians.” (Canon 26)
http://www.romancatholicism.org/popes-jews.htm

Pope Innocent III: “The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.” (To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris)

Pope Innocent IV: “And that you [King Saint Louis IX] order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondwoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)

Pope Saint Martin I: “If anyone shall teach a slave, under pretext of piety, to despise his master and to run away from his service, and not to serve his own master with good-will and all honour, let him be anathema.”

Pope Gregory IX: “They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future become insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)

Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Ecumenical Council: “We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians - and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be slaves to Christians.” (Canon 26)

I am more interested what the even more vital messages your theology embraces are? Especially with respect to Catholic teaching. What are our greatest errors to the point of doing disservice to those seeking the Lord or the truth?

No doubt the Catholic Church erred in its treatment of Jews in Europe for many centuries, but it was also in those earlier ages where all circles of influence, theological, philosophical or state dictates were very harsh because the world was not truly civilized in many ways. 'Tis easy to sit there in the 21st century principles and understandings and pass damning judgments upon the barbaric dark and middle ages. As it is, theCatholic Church has apologized on a number of occasions for its sins. Still waiting for any other Christian branch to come forward on anything.

And you allude the great enlightenment (my words) of the Reformation, including their treatment of Jews. Shall we exclude Martin Luther, for one, who was vile towards our Hebrew friends?

I might add I really do not mind boasters and those certain of their God and what he thinks and what He thinks of others. But I caution: you better be right for your own sake. And my Catholic understanding tells me you Protestants have some claims or boasts I surely would not want to sign on to. (ps -- I am not talking about eschatology / end times, or even thoughts on Jews, I am referring to more critical dogma and doctrine. As it is, I am a definite ally of Israel so we can set that aside.)
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's a term that was coined in the late 19th century to describe the return of Jews to Israel. I quotetd from the Jewish Virtual Library in this post.
***staff edit***


You couldn't even try to understand who "their" is when Jews were referenced in the prior question of the 2 question series? You are putting your effort into doing anything but understanding.



Nor will you find them clear until you put your effort into understanding rather than misunderstanding.



Do you understand why you can't answer a couple of simple yes or no questions?



But nothing could be more relevant to the subject of Zionism, which is the subject of the post you were commenting on.
You couldn't even explain why you claimed the post "mixing up theological ideas with political ones."
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3910210-post100.html

Drivel.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
This was an interesting read - about a woman who left an Orthodox Jewish group.


The things they put women through for normal functions like menstruation, just amaze me!


I was a Hasidic Jew – but I broke free | New York Post



*
A lot of Chassidic women are very happy with the lifestyle.

If not, they can leave it.

It's not a prison.

However, since you supposedly care about women here are things for you to ponder.


Abuse of U.S. Muslim Women Is Greater Than Reported, Advocacy Groups Say | Fox News

ISLAM AND THE ABUSE OF WOMEN: THIGHING OF FEMALE CHILDREN In Islam

CBBC Newsround - Why can't women drive in Saudi Arabia?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
':Originally Posted by CMike
Zionism is a belief of the Jewish homeland in Israel .


Again, vague. So if Israel is totally corrupt, it's still cool? It seems you are simplifying these ideas into black & white concepts, they aren't.

Btw the Jewish Homeland is Israel, no need for the "theology" lesson.

What's totally cool.

That's what zionism is.

I am a proud zionist.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Truth that you avoided by not answering simple questions. If you aren't a Christian please let me know as my questions were and are geared to a Christian.

If you are a Christian, do you believe that the return of Jews to Israel, is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

I don't follow the teachings of the groups you seem to be referencing/alluding to.

So, again, it's just irrelevant.
 
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Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Only fundamentalist Christian zionists are of concern, and they are not haters on purpose. Like Hamas they just believe that things must happen a certain way before Jesus returns or before the resurrection or before all believers fly away into the air. They watch and give a little nudge here and there. Sometimes they give a big nudge here and there. There are multiple camps, but they all believe 1. Israel has to become a country 2. there has to be a huge conflict in which Jesus personally rescues Israel, himself. Mt. Olive splits under his feet, etc etc. People die.
Its perfectly plausible to support Israel's nation status without expecting Jesus to appear there. Most in this group would be the liberal progressives and some of the orthodox, possibly some Catholics (not sure about Orthodox and Catholic). LDS? No idea where LDS would stand on this issue. I think LDS though has a different approach to it entirely.

Cool, Brickj, but I guess I have to believe there are some moderate Christian Zionists, at least I hope so !
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
A lot of Chassidic women are very happy with the lifestyle.

If not, they can leave it.

It's not a prison.

However, since you supposedly care about women here are things for you to ponder.


Abuse of U.S. Muslim Women Is Greater Than Reported, Advocacy Groups Say | Fox News

ISLAM AND THE ABUSE OF WOMEN: THIGHING OF FEMALE CHILDREN In Islam

CBBC Newsround - Why can't women drive in Saudi Arabia?


Actually just like Islamic woman, they are taught by their group that they must comply to be godly.


They are held, by being afraid of being kicked out, and having no family or friends to turn to for survival.


Patriarchal religions are prisons for women.


And it is appalling the ancient misogynistic crap they make women do.


Treating women as if a man coming in contact with her when she is menstruating is going to make him die on the spot. Having to shave her head!


I would laugh if it wasn't so sad for the women whom by chance are born into, and thus indoctrinated into, these religions.



*
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Dunno man, but since they are Palestinians and not just Hamas, I think I can't blame them. I'm not saying what they are doing is right and I'm in its favor, I'm only saying I can't blame them and the reason is as I type below.

Those people had their homes stolen, children killed, their lives under siege, denied so many pleasures, etc. in the last half century and probably are still having it now.

We here are typing things about them from behind our monitors somewhere else far from what they face, sitting on our comfortable chairs, going where ever we want when ever we want... I don't think we are in position to criticize what they, as civilians, do or say.

We have a saying here that roughly translates to: "whose hand in water is not like whose hand in fire". The former in that translated proverb does not know how the latter feel, been through or the position they are in.

They are harmless civilians. Just let them do what ever they want. It won't hurt us or change a thing. Poor people.

Celebration? The can't even enjoy their annual celebrations like we do. They probably wanted to come up with something to kill their time. To enjoy things they never had the chance to in a piece of mind in the last half century.
 
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