One Saviour?

[Redemptionsong]

I agree that people do sometimes interpret the Bible to fit their needs. But there are also many genuine seekers after truth.
The beauty of the Bible is that it is self-interpreting. You do not have to venture outside the Scripture to find answers to the fundamental questions it raises.
And whilst Jesus never wrote any of the scriptures himself, there is a sense in which it is all his Word, as prophesied by the 40 or so writers who did write it down. Their combined inspiration and testimony adds weight to the truth because there is then no question of Jesus being accused of self-aggrandizement.

 

[Ingledsva]

I am persuaded that the scriptures are unbroken, truly the word of God. Proof is not a word I like.

ING - But you being persuaded isn't proof for the rest of us.


But, then again, since only God has a universal perspective, He is in the best position to provide us with something wholly persuasive. The human perspective is inevitably limited, whereas God is omniscient.

ING - The Bible is not persuasive to me. Too many things in there that are not just - but are claimed to be from God.


The better you come to know the scriptures, the more amazing they appear.

ING - Again, not to me. Much has been changed over the centuries, - mistranslated - etc. - Supposed texts about homosexuals for instance. Or the idea of a Hell of Torture.


True prophecy cannot be emulated. It is perfectly constructed and spans time in a way that human writings cannot.


ING - What true prophecy? A text about Isaiah's son Emmanuel - becomes a prophecy of Jesus, and the future. A text about a King of Babylon - becomes a text about Lucifer, etc.


Further more, history and archaeology are able to confirm events and significant individuals. But most importantly of all, the truth of the Bible is confirmed by the human spirit and soul.

History is one thing, - the myth woven in amongst that history - is still just myth.



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[Nakosis]

I agree that people do sometimes interpret the Bible to fit their needs. But there are also many genuine seekers after truth.
The beauty of the Bible is that it is self-interpreting. You do not have to venture outside the Scripture to find answers to the fundamental questions it raises.
And whilst Jesus never wrote any of the scriptures himself, there is a sense in which it is all his Word, as prophesied by the 40 or so writers who did write it down. Their combined inspiration and testimony adds weight to the truth because there is then no question of Jesus being accused of self-aggrandizement.

If a person is honestly seeking the truth, right, I'd suspect they are going about it the best they can. Not really their fault if they were raised in some other religion or even an atheist, or somehow to the best of their ability decided there was no God.

I don't know the authors of the Bible, or the scribes and translators. You are putting a lot of trust in all these people you don't know. You rely on what was prophesied and what was fulfilled. However you are relying on what someone you don't know claimed was prophesied and what others claimed was fulfilled.

You, Muslims, Jews all feel themselves justified believing as they do. Nothing really special about this.

I'd hope God would have enough compassion that as long as people were trying to seek the truth the best that they can God would be satisfied. However someone decides they need to get everyone else to think like them because they know God's will better then anyone else.

I'd bet God finds a lot of humor seeing us humans going around trying to convince each other that they know God's will.

 

[Ingledsva]

Each of the gospels provides a unique perspective on the life of Jesus - and each was prophesied in the prophets.
The Hebrew word TSEMACH (a sprout, or branch) only occurs 5 times in scripture. It can be found in Isaiah 4:2, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 33:15, Zecharaiah 3:8 and Zechariah 6:12.
Isaiah 4:2 the Branch of the LORD (Son of God, Gospel of John)
Jeremiah 23:5 a righteous Branch, and a king shall reign.
Jeremiah 33:15 the Branch of righteousness shall grow up unto David (Matthew's Gospel - the Royal line)
Zechariah 3:8 my servant the branch (Mark's Gospel - the servant of God)
Zecharaiah 6:12 the man whose name is The BRANCH (the Son of Man - Luke's Gospel)

The fifth prophetic book must refer to the coming of the King to reign! Revelation?

And what makes a common Hebrew idea - family as branches of a tree - special?

They were awaiting their Messiah from the branch of David.


Isaiah is not about Jesus. It is about Isaiah's son Emmanuel, and the war.

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Jeremiah isn't about Jesus either - which is very obvious if you read it all the way through. Times for things to happen are given. Specific Kings are mentioned. These are coming against the city of Jerusalem. Jer 23:5 is an excellent example of how fudging is going on to make it appear to be talking about a future "lord" Jesus. Those "Lords" are actually YHVH.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD (YHVH), that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (YHVH) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


These are the last four verses in Jeremiah.


Jer 52:31 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,

Jer 52:32 And spake kindly unto him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon,

Jer 52:33 And changed his prison garments: and he did continually eat bread before him all the days of his life.

Jer 52:34 And for his diet, there was a continual diet given him of the king of Babylon, every day a portion until the day of his death, all the days of his life.

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The "Branch" in Zechariah isn't Jesus either. Christianity has stolen Hebrew verses having nothing to do with Jesus - and fudged the wording - including YHVH becoming Lord.


Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zec 6:10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


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[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
Before discussing our differences, may I ask what it is you do believe in relation to the Tanakh and New Testament?

Nakosis, I believe God will answer anyone who seeks the truth -no matter what religious background that person has. But ultimately, you do have to learn to trust God, and those TO WHOM he has entrusted his word. This involves discerning between a true and false prophet - a subject about which much is said in scripture.

 

[Nakosis]

Nakosis, I believe God will answer anyone who seeks the truth -no matter what religious background that person has. But ultimately, you do have to learn to trust God, and those TO WHOM he has entrusted his word. This involves discerning between a true and false prophet - a subject about which much is said in scripture.

Do you think there are true prophets about in the contemporary sense?

Or are we left to rely on biblical prophets until the return of Jesus?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I understand that the scripture is complete. There is no need for any kind of prophecy that adds to scripture.We've been given all we need.
Revelation 22:18 '
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.'

Contemporary prophecy, within the body of Christ, is for the purpose of edification and encouragement.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
Before discussing our differences, may I ask what it is you do believe in relation to the Tanakh and New Testament?

Nakosis, I believe God will answer anyone who seeks the truth -no matter what religious background that person has. But ultimately, you do have to learn to trust God, and those TO WHOM he has entrusted his word. This involves discerning between a true and false prophet - a subject about which much is said in scripture.

Sure, and please put different people in different posts. When I first read that second paragraph - I thought you were using a foreign word - followed by the meaning. Then I realized it was a NAME, and a message to that person.

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Basically - The Jews believe in ONE God - no one with, - no trinity.

They are awaiting their Messiah - a special/singular "human" - of the Line of David, - sent from God, - that will bring about the end - and final judgment.


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Jesus was claiming to be that Messiah - not a God - or part of a Trinity.

A Special/Singular one sent from YHVH Elohiym to do a job.


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[savagewind]

I understand that the scripture is complete. There is no need for any kind of prophecy that adds to scripture.We've been given all we need.
Revelation 22:18 '
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.'

Contemporary prophecy, within the body of Christ, is for the purpose of edification and encouragement.

"This book" does not mean the modern Bible. The modern Bible did not exist as we know it when Revelation was written. The words this book most likely mean Revelation 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
God created heaven and earth.

You rightly explain the earthly story in terms of human affairs. This is human history.

Do we stop there and say that God is GOD OF EARTH ONLY?

I say that God is also God of heaven, and provides the heavenly story AS WELL AS the earthly story. Jesus did exactly this when telling his parables. You provide an earthly story and a heavenly story to match.

So, what do you think is the HEAVENLY meaning of the scriptures you quote?! How are they to be understood spiritually?

The Hebrew scholars of the Talmud had the good sense to understand this essential truth. When they discussed and debated the scriptures they could see that the Messiah would be more than a temporal king. They even understood from the words of Genesis 1 that after 4000 years a Messiah would come! Sadly, he wasn't recognized when he appeared as a servant bringing salvation!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
Surely any Messiah sent by God must be able to judge. What is it that enables a judge to judge perfectly? It's perfection. The only way is to BE PERFECT. And the only way to be perfect is to be OF GOD. Think about Solomon, who was a type of perfect judge. Where did his wisdom come from? Was it HIS OWN wisdom, or was it the WISDOM OF GOD?

 

[Ingledsva]

I agree with you ZooGirl - but sadly the Catholic Church goes way beyond what is in the scriptures. Is Mary not held to be sinless? Is Mary not regarded as the Mother of God?

There are several Non-canonical Gospels out there that tell the story of Mary - saying she was without sin.


Catholics will tell you that in Luke 1:28, - "Full of Grace" also means no sin.

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28

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And of course they also believe Jesus is God - so - Mother of God.


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They also say it is Mary that gives Jesus the Line of David decent.


"If Mary were not of Davidic descent, her Son conceived by the Holy Ghost could not be said to be "of the seed of David". Hence commentators tell us that in the text "in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God. . .to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David" (Luke 1:26-27); the last clause "of the house of David" does not refer to Joseph, but to the virgin who is the principal person in the narrative; thus we have a direct inspired testimony to Mary's Davidic descent." Catholic Encyclopedia

In other words Luke 1:26-27 needs a comma.

in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God. . .to a virgin, espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David"



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[Redemptionsong]

Savagewind,
When Moses received the Torah it contained words about creation. Was Moses there to see creation?
When John received a prophecy about 'a new heaven and earth' (in Revelation) was he there?
Maybe 'this book' IS just a reference to Revelation. Yet Revelation itself contains the prophetic word of other books, so do we then extend the reference to those books too?
Once one sees that the Bible is a tapestry that cannot be unwoven it stops being sixty-six books and becomes 'this book'.
Once again, it's man's word versus God's word.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
I believe you know something about the law of Moses, and recognize the importance of sacrifices in the Temple.
Leviticus 12 - What do you understand this to say? Please provide an orthodox Jewish explanation.

 

[savagewind]

Savagewind,
When Moses received the Torah it contained words about creation. Was Moses there to see creation?
When John received a prophecy about 'a new heaven and earth' (in Revelation) was he there?
Maybe 'this book' IS just a reference to Revelation. Yet Revelation itself contains the prophetic word of other books, so do we then extend the reference to those books too?
Once one sees that the Bible is a tapestry that cannot be unwoven it stops being sixty-six books and becomes 'this book'.
Once again, it's man's word versus God's word.

I am not disagreeing with you. I am pointing out you use a scripture wrongly. This is what you said

I understand that the scripture is complete. There is no need for any kind of prophecy that adds to scripture.We've been given all we need.

And then you quoted Revelation.

Man's word has crept into "The Book". It is still a tapestry. Have you not noticed some words in it are man's words, not words for the drawing close to God?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
God created heaven and earth.

You rightly explain the earthly story in terms of human affairs. This is human history.


ING - History - only in that someone wrote it in the past. That does not necessarily mean it is true history.


Do we stop there and say that God is GOD OF EARTH ONLY?

I say that God is also God of heaven, and provides the heavenly story AS WELL AS the earthly story. Jesus did exactly this when telling his parables. You provide an earthly story and a heavenly story to match.


ING - Not sure what you are trying to say here.

It says GOD is the God of the Heavens and the Earth.

However, you appear to be trying to say Jesus is God. It does not say that.

Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah from the Line of David - a Special/Singular HUMAN - sent by God to do a job.


So, what do you think is the HEAVENLY meaning of the scriptures you quote?! How are they to be understood spiritually?


ING - "Heavenly meaning" is conjecture. They say what they say.


The Hebrew scholars of the Talmud had the good sense to understand this essential truth. When they discussed and debated the scriptures they could see that the Messiah would be more than a temporal king. They even understood from the words of Genesis 1 that after 4000 years a Messiah would come! Sadly, he wasn't recognized when he appeared as a servant bringing salvation!

They do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah as he did not fulfill all of their requirements.


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[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
Surely any Messiah sent by God must be able to judge. What is it that enables a judge to judge perfectly? It's perfection. The only way is to BE PERFECT. And the only way to be perfect is to be OF GOD. Think about Solomon, who was a type of perfect judge. Where did his wisdom come from? Was it HIS OWN wisdom, or was it the WISDOM OF GOD?

Again - what are you trying to say here?


If you are - again - trying to say Jesus is God - then you shot your own argument - when you added Solomon.


Wisdom from God, - does not mean one is God, or part of a Trinity God, etc.



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[Redemptionsong]

Savagewind,
The reason I quoted Revelation was to show that God is passionate about his Word! He will not allow it to be subverted. Small mistakes have crept in, but none that cannot be uncovered.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
I believe you know something about the law of Moses, and recognize the importance of sacrifices in the Temple.
Leviticus 12 - What do you understand this to say? Please provide an orthodox Jewish explanation.

It would be so nice if you just straight out asked a question.


ASK!



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[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
OK. One point at a time.
Will the Jewish Messiah, whoever you imagine that to be, be a perfect judge?