Is Karma real or is it just fantasy

[YmirGF]

I am appalled. 41% of the voters do not believe in causes and effects. Alas, the madness!

To my view, cause and effect is an over-simplification as there are a myriad of consequences to every action in a universe of unlimited probabilities.

 

[kashmir]

To my view, cause and effect is an over-simplification as there are a myriad of consequences to every action in a universe of unlimited probabilities.

But that is what karma is, in a nut shell.

Sort of like saying, "we are what we eat"

 

[sun rise]

To the question about reincarnation, yes I believe that we reincarnate

 

[Twilight Hue]

But that is what karma is, in a nut shell.

Sort of like saying, "we are what we eat"

It is. The complexity that arises can certainly become confusing.

Karma itself. ;0)

 

[YmirGF]

It is. The complexity that arises can certainly become confusing.

Karma itself. ;0)

Which is all the more reason not to waste too much time worrying about your actions. If you have to think about something before you do it, then maybe you shouldn't.

 

[atanu]

Yes, the theory of Karma (the original Hindu idea, not the westernized appropriated version) rests on the premise of the existence of the eternal Atman, or the Self, where actions produce Sanskara (Imprints, impressions) on the Atman.

Some quotes from Yoga Sutra may help.

CHAPTER IV – KAIVALYA PADA
INDEPENDENCE

tadasankhyeyavasanachitram api pararthan
sanhatyakaritvat

23) The mind through its innumerable desires acts for
another (the Purusa), being combinations.

(the mind is the instrument to conduct actions for the Purusha (Atma).

As for Karma

karmashuklakrishnnam yoginah trividham itaresham

7) Karma are neither black nor white for the Yogis; for
others they are threefold, black, white, and mixed.

(Here Black and White can be taken to mean Good and Bad)

tatastadvipakanugunanam evabhivyaktirvasananam

8) From these threefold works are manifested in each
state only those desires (which are) fitting to that state
alone. (The others are held in abeyance for the time
being.)

Desires express themselves in the right environment, then actions (Karma) are performed according the desires and reaction (Karma) occurs according to the environment.

Karma is the means to attain perfection, and in Yoga Sutras of Patanjali we find such sutras as.

prasankhyanepyakusidasy sarvathavivekakhyater
dharmameghah samadhih

28) Even when arriving at the right discriminating
knowledge of the senses, he who gives up the fruits,
unto him comes as the result of perfect
discrimination, the Samadhi called the Dharma Megha (Cloud of Dharma)

tatah kleshakarmanivrittih

29) From that comes cessation of pains and Karma.

Here the fruits of ones actions are to be given up to attain freedom from all Karma (reaction). Actions will always be performed and reactions will always be there but if attachment to the results be removed, the pains of the reacting Karma are lessened, how to remove them, well that is the entire point of Yoga.

Nice post. Thanks satya.

Allow me a small point. Atman as such is said to be ever taint-less. The imprints are said to exist in the mental layer, which is a conditioned aspect of the Consciousness.

Thanks again. It has been a very valuable post for me.

 

[kashmir]

It is. The complexity that arises can certainly become confusing.

Karma itself. ;0)

That's why people call it Karma.
Its easier to say that then try to explain the complexity to why something might have happened.

Here is one that happened to a friend of mine.
He was in the construction business, upon pulling out of his driveway he knew a bucket of nails had spilled over in the back of his truck, and just scooped up most of them and went about his day.

Later when he came home, he ran over one and got a flat tire because he forgot about them.
It was a slow leak, so it wan't until the next morning did he find out.

 

[George-ananda]

Nice post. Thanks satya.

Allow me a small point. Atman as such is said to be ever taint-less. The imprints are said to exist in the mental layer, which is a conditioned aspect of the Consciousness.

Thanks again. It has been a very valuable post for me.

I agree, I liked yours and satya's posts but that same phrase didn't sit right with me: (Imprints, impressions) on the Atman.

Atman is beyond all that. Thanks, you cleared my mind on that issue Atanu.

 

[Leftimies]

To my view, cause and effect is an over-simplification as there are a myriad of consequences to every action in a universe of unlimited probabilities.

And that is karma. It can be said that each action leads to countless rebirths: thats why Buddhist monks fortify themselves in renunciation, to minimise the amount of karmic/causal rebirths. The term 'rebirth' refers in not necessarily birth of flesh and blood beings, but to birth of new causal streams.

What you described very much is karma, or kamma, depending on whether you want to emphasise more hindu connotation through Sanskrit (karma) or buddhist connotation through Pali (kamma).

 

[YmirGF]

And that is karma. It can be said that each action leads to countless rebirths: thats why Buddhist monks fortify themselves in renunciation, to minimise the amount of karmic/causal rebirths. The term 'rebirth' refers in not necessarily birth of flesh and blood beings, but to birth of new causal streams.

Hehe. You almost make so-called "rebirth" sound like a bad thing, LOL. I don't look at it this way, as I see it more as being a part of our inherent creativity. If people want to stifle their own nature, that is their cross to bear. I do wish them luck - they're going to need it. I did get a good laugh out of the "minimize the amount of karmic/causal rebirths" idea too. You make it sound like some kind of race, from which people can hardly wait to complete. It isn't. Time, as it is normally perceived, is quite irrelevant to the endlessly curious psyche that is perpetually exploring new areas of creativity.

What you described very much is karma, or kamma, depending on whether you want to emphasise more hindu connotation through Sanskrit (karma) or buddhist connotation through Pali (kamma).

If you insist. I'll never use the term myself in anything but a joking manner, but folks are free to use the term however they wish.

 

[StarryNightshade]

It's real.

However, it's cause and effect; not a cosmic judge.

 

[YmirGF]

It's real.

However, it's cause and effect; not a cosmic judge.

Well, that settles it then.

 

[atanu]

It's real.

However, it's cause and effect; not a cosmic judge.

Agreed. However, a fundamental question, also important in general, is how the effect knows what cause to follow?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Agreed. However, a fundamental question, also important in general, is how the effect knows what cause to follow?

I guess like how thunder comes after lightning, the tide comes and goes, and the changing seasons.

Maybe it doesn't need to "know". It's just something that just is.

 

[atanu]

I guess like how thunder comes after lightning, the tide comes and goes, and the changing seasons.

Maybe it doesn't need to "know". It's just something that just is.

Yes. It is a big philosophical question and not at all resolved.

The Vedic Hindu science of Logic, called nyAya shastra, argues as below:

• The world is a work, an effect, and so must have real cause. This cause must be Ishvara.
• The world has a wonderful unity, coordination and order, so its creator must have been an intelligent being.
• People do good and sinful work and get fruits. People themselves cannot be the giver of their fruits, as no one would give himself the fruit of his sin. Also, this giver cannot be an unconscious object. So the giver of the fruits of Karma is Ishvara.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The cause time to time is the effect.

 

[Ablaze]

Karma means action, in particular, volition and intention. Those are quite real the last time I checked.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I have watched every single one of his parole hearings.
He hates being alone and begged them to put him in general population.
He also tried his best to get paroled, up until the last couple did he realize he was never getting out and even then he still begged to be put in general population.

The way he acted when being around people during the hearings was complete obvious to his suffering, he needs to be around people, to control them.
His whole life revolved around controlling people.
That is what made him tick.
As for suffering, he is most likely suffering the most of anyone in prison.

Really? In the interview I watched, he preferred to stay in prison because he's been in there so many times - he's used to it, it's his life. He was totally willing.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Karma means action, in particular, volition and intention. Those are quite real the last time I checked.

I'm sure nobody denies the existence of that. As a concept, karma is more than just volition and intention.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Then why compassion and empathy at all?

The past actions produce results like a clockwork, not much can be done about that, except for persevering. But we have the present in hand, where actions that will bear fruit take place. Knowledge of karma only can motivate one properly towards empathy and compassion at present.

We mustn't create a metaphysical justice system which returns empathy to the empathetic and injustice to the unjust; we have to create a literal one, a physical one.

Someone should have compassion and empathy if they have it, not forced to for any reason. If we want a person to behave and act accordingly to specific rules, that would be dictatorship. However, we can set boundaries for how people shouldn't act. This is nothing objective though, and thus no metaphysical source of justice should touch on it by logic.

All morals eventually become outdated; does the metaphysical karma change with our civilizations? Is it relative among different earthly cultures? Then what about on the moon where there are no cultures and there is no morality?