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Who's a Jew?

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Levite

Higher and Higher
But look at what's happened. In order to encourage Jewish community, you relaxed your standards so that people in outlying areas can come together. You minimize the differences between Jews and non-Jews. This results in an assimilation crisis... which you combat by lowering your standards and blurring the line between Jews and non-Jews even more.

It kind of seems like you are fighting a forest fire by throwing branches into it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Liberal Judaism has not made some firecracker mistakes in how it handles observance and community, but blaming the assimilation crisis merely on "relaxed standards" and "minimizing differences between Jews and non-Jews" in Liberal Judaism is to ignore the true complexity and history that created the assimilation crisis-- which, by the way, affects the Orthodox world as well, if in somewhat smaller degree.

And the answers to the crisis are not likely to be found by retreating into isolationism, xenophobia, rejection of history, or rejection of modernity, either.

If there are to be any productive measures taken to aid the slowing of the crisis, they will have to involve compromise from both the left and the right, for the good not only of the Jewish People as a whole now, but of all the future generations depending on us. Nothing about this situation is ideal, and the solutions will not be halachically ideal, either, but rather pragmatic ones, and if they are to be effective across the spectrum of the Jewish world, they cannot simply be an expectation for the whole Jewish People to be adherers to the halachic ****ot of whoever the charedi posekim du jour happen to be.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Liberal Judaism has not made some firecracker mistakes in how it handles observance and community, but blaming the assimilation crisis merely on "relaxed standards" and "minimizing differences between Jews and non-Jews" in Liberal Judaism is to ignore the true complexity and history that created the assimilation crisis-- which, by the way, affects the Orthodox world as well, if in somewhat smaller degree.

And the answers to the crisis are not likely to be found by retreating into isolationism, xenophobia, rejection of history, or rejection of modernity, either.

If there are to be any productive measures taken to aid the slowing of the crisis, they will have to involve compromise from both the left and the right, for the good not only of the Jewish People as a whole now, but of all the future generations depending on us. Nothing about this situation is ideal, and the solutions will not be halachically ideal, either, but rather pragmatic ones, and if they are to be effective across the spectrum of the Jewish world, they cannot simply be an expectation for the whole Jewish People to be adherers to the halachic ****ot of whoever the charedi posekim du jour happen to be.

I'm not saying that the answer isolationism. That is a separate thing. But the answer is definitely not to relax religious requirements. You took an emergency enactment and made it your flag. Look at who you are regulating: a constituency who, outside of its Rabbinical board, is mostly indistinguishable from Reform in their practice. Then you are telling them that they can drop even more requirements. You are giving them the permission to become more secular. So they are.

Now, you're right. We also have to deal with our own kids who go off. And the internet is only making things harder. But the answer is not lowering the bar. All that does is serves to lower the standards of the general population for the sake of the few that go off. We're not going to say, since everyone has internet, let's be matir isurei r'iya, so that when the inevitable happens, they won't be transgressing anything. That makes no sense. Today its that and tomorrow its isurei bi'ah. Instead, we developed filters and encourage people to use them. We teach ourselves so that we should want to use them.

At the end of the day, we have been more successful than you in maintaining a strong Jewish identity. This is practically undeniable. But because of your biases (or perhaps for some, because they don't want to give up eating non-kosher outside the home), you refuse to look at a model that works better than yours.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Liberal Judaism has not made some firecracker mistakes in how it handles observance and community, but blaming the assimilation crisis merely on "relaxed standards" and "minimizing differences between Jews and non-Jews" in Liberal Judaism is to ignore the true complexity and history that created the assimilation crisis-- which, by the way, affects the Orthodox world as well, if in somewhat smaller degree.

And the answers to the crisis are not likely to be found by retreating into isolationism, xenophobia, rejection of history, or rejection of modernity, either.

If there are to be any productive measures taken to aid the slowing of the crisis, they will have to involve compromise from both the left and the right, for the good not only of the Jewish People as a whole now, but of all the future generations depending on us. Nothing about this situation is ideal, and the solutions will not be halachically ideal, either, but rather pragmatic ones, and if they are to be effective across the spectrum of the Jewish world, they cannot simply be an expectation for the whole Jewish People to be adherers to the halachic ****ot of whoever the charedi posekim du jour happen to be.

I'm not saying that the answer isolationism. That is a separate thing. But the answer is definitely not to relax religious requirements. You took an emergency enactment and made it your flag. Look at who you are regulating: a constituency who, outside of its Rabbinical board, is mostly indistinguishable from Reform in their practice. Then you are telling them that they can drop even more requirements. You are giving them the permission to become more secular. So they are.

Now, you're right. We also have to deal with our own kids who go off. And the internet is only making things harder. But the answer is not lowering the bar. All that does is serves to lower the standards of the general population for the sake of the few that go off. We're not going to say, since everyone has internet, let's be matir isurei r'iya, so that when the inevitable happens, they won't be transgressing anything. That makes no sense. Today its that and tomorrow its isurei bi'ah. Instead, we developed filters and encourage people to use them. We teach ourselves so that we should want to use them.

At the end of the day, we have been more successful than you in maintaining a strong Jewish identity. This is practically undeniable. But because of your biases (or perhaps for some, because they don't want to give up eating non-kosher outside the home), you refuse to look at a model that works better than yours.
Just a note to thank you both for an interesting exchange.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's counterproductive because it requires some Reform Jews to either exist in a Reform vacuum or have to confront their non-Jewishness when they interact with other communities and movements.

I have had to counsel and/or help convert a number of young Reform Jews who were told in their congregations that they were Jewish, and did not discover otherwise until they left home and tried to find places in Conservative or Orthodox congregations, or wanted to date or marry Conservative or Orthodox individuals. Nearly all of them related feeling deeply betrayed by their Reform upbringing, and could not understand why either their non-Jewish parent couldn't have converted before having them, or why at least they themselves could not have been converted as babies or small children.

What is more, it forces Conservative and Orthodox Jews to have to be the ones to break the news to these well-meaning Reform individuals that what they have always been told is simply untrue outside the Reform movement in America, and has no precedent in tradition. Contrary to what some may think, we don't actually enjoy having to break that news. It's awful. You get to see a whole lot of hurt, anger, and betrayal, that could and should have been easily prevented.

As a rabbi, I hate having to ask about the parentage or conversion status of someone who comes to me asking me to officiate at their marriage, or do their child's bar/bat mitzvah. I hate having to break it to some people that I cannot do those things for them unless they convert first, or have their child converted first-- almost inevitably, things their Reform rabbi in childhood or previous life had never bothered to inform them about.

The patrilineal descent doctrine solved nothing. It aided nothing. It simply made things more of a mess, widened the gaps between the movements, and created easily preventable hurt.

But that still doesn't change anything unless one is intending to convert to a branch that recognizes only maternal ascent. If one has no intention of doing as such, whereas the problem?

For example, when I go to my local JCC, I'm recognized as a Jew-- not a "Reform Jew". Same is true when I go to Israel and interact with people there.

As you well know, each branch of Judaism has its demands, and Reform is no exception. I do not have to adhere to your branch's demands unless I intend to convert, nor for you to adhere to mine (much easier for you though).

If a Reform Jew wishes to marry Conservative or Orthodox, they will have to make a decision as to which direction they intend to go forward with. If they decide to go Orthodox, for example, yes the Reform Jew will have to do through an Orthodox bet dein. OK, no problem as classes and acceptance would be in order, and if they're accepted, they're in. If they decide to go Reform, they're in.

As far as bar mitzvah's are concerned, each shul has it's own requirements regardless as to what one's background may be. If classes are in order, so be it.

What you have proposed I've run across many times before, and I would suggest that it's mostly based on the issue of conformity, which is not that terribly compatible with how we as Jews actually function. We don't have creeds, and our commentaries vary so much on so many different topics. Much like if I write a commentary you don't agree with, you obviously have the right to ignore it or to respond disapprovingly. I can't force you to agree with what I may think and write.

Therefore, we as Jews are going to disagree on a great many items. So? Am I going to insist that you must agree with me on everything? No. Are we going to schedule and international Jewish vote on what's absolutely required for each of us before we can be called a "Jew"? No.

Where it does make a difference that is real is when we consider the "Law of Return", and yes at that level there must be some sort of guidelines established.

Shabbat shalom
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
There is, nevertheless, a distinction (with respect to attitudes toward halachah) between Orthodox and Conservative on the one hand and Reform Movement on the other.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is, nevertheless, a distinction (with respect to attitudes toward halachah) between Orthodox and Conservative on the one hand and Reform Movement on the other.

Overall, yes, but not always when it comes to individuals.

But we have to remember that not everyone is going to look at halacha or even Torah in the same way. For example, CMike and I look at Torah quite differently, and that's fine with me. It would make little sense for him to attend my shul or for me to attend his because our approaches are really quite different, and it's virtually impossible to prove once and for all which supposedly is "right".

To me, there's pros and cons to just about any approach we can think of, but such is life. I don't demand conformity, although it's nice to see at least some of it occasionally, no doubt. In Judaism, there has always been a friction between conformity and the freedom of thought and action, and either extreme has often brought about problems for us.

Shabbat shalom
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Overall, yes, but not always when it comes to individuals.

But we have to remember that not everyone is going to look at halacha or even Torah in the same way. For example, CMike and I look at Torah quite differently, and that's fine with me. It would make little sense for him to attend my shul or for me to attend his because our approaches are really quite different, and it's virtually impossible to prove once and for all which supposedly is "right".

To me, there's pros and cons to just about any approach we can think of, but such is life. I don't demand conformity, although it's nice to see at least some of it occasionally, no doubt. In Judaism, there has always been a friction between conformity and the freedom of thought and action, and either extreme has often brought about problems for us.

Shabbat shalom

That might be fine with you, but that's because you're on the liberal side of the line. It seems to me that you are interpreting the differences as brotherly quibbles, when the reality is a bit more significant.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That might be fine with you, but that's because you're on the liberal side of the line. It seems to me that you are interpreting the differences as brotherly quibbles, when the reality is a bit more significant.

Can't you agree with you on that since there's always been "liberal", "conservative", and in-between Jews probably as far back as we can take Judaism. Yes, we "quibble", but that's intrinsic with us as Jews. When someone posts "traditional Jew", I have to chuckle somewhat because exactly what constitutes a "traditional Jew"? Which tradition? Which school? Which sages? Which set of commentaries?

Yes, these "quibbles" are "significant" a times. So? Hard questions often result in differences of opinions, so this sorta goes with the territory. Has it caused some hardships? Of course. But what's the alternative?

And it's not just us "liberals" who often disagree on various matters, as our history has clearly shown us. What about the chasidim, whom were not welcomed by most Orthodox a couple of centuries ago? What about the various schools who often disagreed with each other on a multitude of matters?

Judaism is simply not a conformist approach to theological matters, and for some Jews to insist that it should be is a bit like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Nor is Judaism a static approach to these matters. We have evolved and continue to evolve, and undoubtedly many of us will disagree as to which changes were good and which weren't.

Again, what's the alternative?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Overall, yes, but not always when it comes to individuals.
Individuals do all manner of things for all manner of reasons. Nevertheless, the Orthodox and Conservative movement share a belief in halachic authority which is not characteristic of the URJ.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Individuals do all manner of things for all manner of reasons. Nevertheless, the Orthodox and Conservative movement share a belief in halachic authority which is not characteristic of the URJ.

Because "we"* tend to view it somewhat differently. I feel as a Reform Jew that halacha is important, but I have long reserved the right to disagree with specific teachings and to possibly act accordingly. Was there ever a uniformity when it came to halacha? Hardly.


* "we" tend to be all over the place in Reform on matters of halacha.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
However, I know many Masorti Jews and rabbis, and have never heard any of them refer to their movement as Reform, or anything other than Masorti.

You are, of course, correct. The power kept going on and off in my building and I kept typing, retyping and shortening the post to the point where I didn't take the time to re-read it before sending it to make sure I was still saying what I meant to say.

What I failed to articulate is that Liberal Judaism in England most closely equates to, for want of a better term, centrist Reform Judaism in the USA. Reform Judaism in England, while certainly not Masorti, represents right of center Reform, closer to the boundaries where right of center Reform meets left of center Conservative.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
As perhaps the only person here who has belonged to an SHJ affiliated synagogue, let me say that your comment is a coarse and prejudicial caricature at best.

I am sorry that you took a offense. However, while I will plead nolo contendre to perhaps being a a bit too flippant in my language, I stand by the substance of what I wrote.

The Birmingham Temple, the granddaddy of Humanistic congregations, states on its website in regard to beliefs, and in regard to the question as to who is a Jew - "Consistent with its value system, Humanistic Judaism has a very broad understanding of Jewish identity and belonging. Simply stated, we believe that a Jew is anyone who identifies with the history, culture, and future of the Jewish people. At The Birmingham Temple, there are no barriers to full participation by anyone, regardless of background or heritage." (emphasis added)

It is true that the Society for Humanistic Judaism offers a course for non-Jews interested in joining the movement. I know of Humanistic congregations that offer conversion programs, some of whom refer to it as conversion, some as adoption, some as affirmation, but the Birmingham Temple is not the only congregation that fits the mold of my comment with which you took umbrage.

For example, the Congregation for Humanistic Judaism in Sarasota, Florida, on its website states - "A Jew is someone who identifies with the history, culture, struggles and triumphs of the Jewish people. The definition includes all people who want to be Jewish without requiring that they be born of a Jewish mother or father or that they convert to Judaism in any formal way. It is self-definition." (emphasis added)

Or this from Kol Shalom, a Humanistic congregation in Portland, Oregon - "We have a number of members who are non-Jewish humanists, spouses or partners of Jews, and we take care to respect their cultures as well. While we accept anyone as a Jew who sincerely identifies as a Jew, we do offer an "adoption" ceremony for anyone who wants a formal recognition of being Jewish." (emphasis added)
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The Birmingham Temple, the granddaddy of Humanistic congregations, states on its website in regard to beliefs, and in regard to the question as to who is a Jew - "Consistent with its value system, Humanistic Judaism has a very broad understanding of Jewish identity and belonging. Simply stated, we believe that a Jew is anyone who identifies with the history, culture, and future of the Jewish people.
Yes, I know. As I said, I was a member (in fact, board member) of an affiliated synagogue.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Can't you agree with you on that since there's always been "liberal", "conservative", and in-between Jews probably as far back as we can take Judaism. Yes, we "quibble", but that's intrinsic with us as Jews. When someone posts "traditional Jew", I have to chuckle somewhat because exactly what constitutes a "traditional Jew"? Which tradition? Which school? Which sages? Which set of commentaries?

Yes, these "quibbles" are "significant" a times. So? Hard questions often result in differences of opinions, so this sorta goes with the territory. Has it caused some hardships? Of course. But what's the alternative?

And it's not just us "liberals" who often disagree on various matters, as our history has clearly shown us. What about the chasidim, whom were not welcomed by most Orthodox a couple of centuries ago? What about the various schools who often disagreed with each other on a multitude of matters?

Judaism is simply not a conformist approach to theological matters, and for some Jews to insist that it should be is a bit like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Nor is Judaism a static approach to these matters. We have evolved and continue to evolve, and undoubtedly many of us will disagree as to which changes were good and which weren't.

Again, what's the alternative?

There is a difference between agreeable disagreement and disagreeable disagreement. With all their differences, those from Shammai's school did not hesitate to marry the daughters of Hillel's school and vise versa even with all the craziness that took place between them. As opposed to this, I am not aware of any Talmudic passages where the Pharisees were willing to marry their children off to Sadducees.

This is not true of when you go from right wing to left wing. Especially with Israeli secular conversion laws changing, people are starting to keep genealogical databases. Its necessary when we view non-Orthodox conversions as invalid. This is disagreeable disagreement.

There is a line where acceptable halachic practices ends. There is a broad spectrum of opinions in the Orthodox world. But once the line is crossed, it is unacceptable. And there are relevant halachic matters that are affected by this.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
...the answer is definitely not to relax religious requirements. You took an emergency enactment and made it your flag. Look at who you are regulating: a constituency who, outside of its Rabbinical board, is mostly indistinguishable from Reform in their practice. Then you are telling them that they can drop even more requirements. You are giving them the permission to become more secular. So they are....the answer is not lowering the bar....
At the end of the day, we have been more successful than you in maintaining a strong Jewish identity. This is practically undeniable. But because of your biases...you refuse to look at a model that works better than yours.

Let's call it a day. You are never going to acknowledge the validity of Conservative Judaism, and I will not call charedi Judaism a "model that works better than mine" because while its adherents do have strong identification, it is to a system that I believe twists Torah and halachah into something oppressive, rigid, and lacking in compassion. So we might as well save our critiques of each other's authenticity for some other time.

But that still doesn't change anything unless one is intending to convert to a branch that recognizes only maternal ascent. If one has no intention of doing as such, whereas the problem?

For example, when I go to my local JCC, I'm recognized as a Jew-- not a "Reform Jew". Same is true when I go to Israel and interact with people there.

As you well know, each branch of Judaism has its demands, and Reform is no exception. I do not have to adhere to your branch's demands unless I intend to convert, nor for you to adhere to mine (much easier for you though).

If a Reform Jew wishes to marry Conservative or Orthodox, they will have to make a decision as to which direction they intend to go forward with. If they decide to go Orthodox, for example, yes the Reform Jew will have to do through an Orthodox bet dein. OK, no problem as classes and acceptance would be in order, and if they're accepted, they're in. If they decide to go Reform, they're in.

As far as bar mitzvah's are concerned, each shul has it's own requirements regardless as to what one's background may be. If classes are in order, so be it.

What you have proposed I've run across many times before, and I would suggest that it's mostly based on the issue of conformity, which is not that terribly compatible with how we as Jews actually function. We don't have creeds, and our commentaries vary so much on so many different topics. Much like if I write a commentary you don't agree with, you obviously have the right to ignore it or to respond disapprovingly. I can't force you to agree with what I may think and write.

Therefore, we as Jews are going to disagree on a great many items. So? Am I going to insist that you must agree with me on everything? No. Are we going to schedule and international Jewish vote on what's absolutely required for each of us before we can be called a "Jew"? No.

There is indeed ample room in Jewish tradition for disagreement-- considerable disagreement, in fact. But that only works if everyone starts from more or less the same page, that page being who is and who is not a Jew. Pretty much everything after that can be disagreed upon, and the resolutions are many; and for most, if they aren't resolved any time soon-- no harm, no foul.

But the problem with simply writing off Jewish identity as "You do your thing, I'll do my thing, and we don't have to agree about it" is that sooner or later, there will be a real question concerning the Jewishness of a large chunk of those purporting to be Jews. I think that most of Orthodoxy has been too quick on the draw, too eager to write off the entirety of the Reform movement-- if not the entirety of non-Orthodox Judaism. But though they may have been too quick out the gate, too rigid in generalization, and too harsh in confrontation, in the end, they have a point.

Nearly two thirds of the Reform movement in the United States are intermarried. The majority of those whose children are not halachically Jewish, by all accounts, do not get them converted, instead relying on "patrilineal descent" to count them as Jews.

Most Conservative rabbis already check the status of Reform Jews who come to them for marriage or divorce, though at present most do this assuming they will be confirming the Reform Jew is actually Jewish. But within just a decade or two, the assumption will have to reverse: we will have to proceed from the assumption that a person claiming to be a Reform Jew is not actually Jewish unless they can provide documentation to support that claim.

By writing off identity as just another quibble, the Reform movement is advancing the day when they will either cease to be Jewish, or become a completely separate religion calling itself Reform Judaism, requiring that they be treated by halachic Jews no different than the members of other non-Jewish religions.

And at least among Conservative Jews and Open Orthodox Jews, we don't want to see that day arrive. We dread it. It fills us with grief and horror. We want to be able to have productive relationships with a Reform movement that-- if yet a movement that we disagree with on many points-- is still a sister movement to us, with whom we can join in marriage, whom we can count in minyanim, to whose members we can offer honors in shul, to whose brachot we can say amen, and so forth. We don't want to be in the position of not recognizing Reform Jews as Jews.

But it seems to be happening, whether we wish it or not.

And it saddens me that the reaction of most of the Reform movement is either to shrug it off or to act as though failure by non-Reform Jews to recognize "patrilineal Jews" as Jews is some sort of bigotry.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Let's call it a day. You are never going to acknowledge the validity of Conservative Judaism, and I will not call charedi Judaism a "model that works better than mine" because while its adherents do have strong identification, it is to a system that I believe twists Torah and halachah into something oppressive, rigid, and lacking in compassion. So we might as well save our critiques of each other's authenticity for some other time.

Oppresive, rigid and lacking in compassion, does not strike me as adjectives for a denomination that probably leads the entire world in terms of proportion to population vs active chessed organizations. Both those that are for our own and those that are for the wider population.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Oppresive, rigid and lacking in compassion, does not strike me as adjectives for a denomination that probably leads the entire world in terms of proportion to population vs active chessed organizations. Both those that are for our own and those that are for the wider population.

Chesed is about more than giving tzedakah to feed and clothe the needy. It's also about treating people decently, with respect, and with care. Not, for example, going gay-bashing, or standing idly by or covering up the sexual abuse of children, or encouraging or tolerating violence in the Jewish community, or demanding such an insane level of asceticism and conformity that it pushes people to drug themselves or permit themselves to be drugged instead of living normal lives.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member

You are giving examples of the actions of individuals. Not of the community as a whole. Its telling that these articles are newsworthy. Dog bites man, wouldn't have been.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
You are giving examples of the actions of individuals. Not of the community as a whole. Its telling that these articles are newsworthy. Dog bites man, wouldn't have been.

:facepalm: Really? That's what you're going with?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
:facepalm: Really? That's what you're going with?

Well, I assume that since you are familiar with some of the communal problems, you are also familiar with the countermeasures that are taken in response to them. So the only things that need to be answered for, are the things that individuals do. And that doesn't really need a response.
 
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