Who's a Jew?

[Fromper]

So I've been thinking about this lately. The words "Jew" and "Jewish" have multiple meanings. One meaning is religious, and the other is ethnic/cultural. There are "secular Jews" who have given up on the religious belief, but refuse to give up the cultural identity of being Jewish.

Personally, I questioned the religious stuff and wondered if God was real even as a kid. I was pretty much a "secular Jew" most of my life, but it took until well into my 30s to embrace the atheist label. These days, when filling out any sort of survey, census, etc that asks religion, I check the "atheist" or "none" box. I don't even consider checking the "Jewish" box any more, despite having done so for years, even after I stopped believing in God.

If asked to provide a list of words that describe myself, I'd probably start with straight, white, male, vegetarian, atheist, and American, before moving on to stuff about my career and hobbies. The word "Jewish" wouldn't even occur to me as one to include any more. I guess I'm still Jewish ethnically, and I've got the big nose to prove it. But asked to check a box on a census, I'd identify myself as "white" for my race. Is Jewish really an ethnicity?

What about my nephews? My sister married a mostly secular Christian and had two kids, who have grown up pretty much without religion. They have secular style celebrations for the holidays of both religions, putting up a Christmas tree, lighting a Menorah, getting presents on both holidays, eating matzah during Passover, and getting Easter baskets full of candy. But they've never gone to church or synagogue, except during family celebrations like weddings and funerals for more religious family members, and never received any religious schooling. Would anyone consider them Jewish?

I guess once I embraced the atheist label, I rejected the Jewish one, and now I don't understand why other "secular Jews" don't do the same. I guess being Jewish is part of my cultural heritage, but it just doesn't seem like a big deal that's worth preserving. The place where I grew up is part of my heritage, too, and that plays just as big, if not bigger, a part in my world view and how I relate to others. To me, the words "Jew" and "Jewish" should only be used for actual believers of the religion.

 

[metis]

To me, it only makes a difference when it comes to one applying for membership at a particular shul or if one applies to go live in Israel under the Law of Return. Other than these two situations, it makes little difference, imo.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To me, the words "Jew" and "Jewish" should only be used for actual believers of the religion.

"should" ?

You are free to self identify as you wish …

… so are the rest of us. L'shalom.​

 

[Tumah]

So I've been thinking about this lately. The words "Jew" and "Jewish" have multiple meanings. One meaning is religious, and the other is ethnic/cultural. There are "secular Jews" who have given up on the religious belief, but refuse to give up the cultural identity of being Jewish.

Personally, I questioned the religious stuff and wondered if God was real even as a kid. I was pretty much a "secular Jew" most of my life, but it took until well into my 30s to embrace the atheist label. These days, when filling out any sort of survey, census, etc that asks religion, I check the "atheist" or "none" box. I don't even consider checking the "Jewish" box any more, despite having done so for years, even after I stopped believing in God.

If asked to provide a list of words that describe myself, I'd probably start with straight, white, male, vegetarian, atheist, and American, before moving on to stuff about my career and hobbies. The word "Jewish" wouldn't even occur to me as one to include any more. I guess I'm still Jewish ethnically, and I've got the big nose to prove it. But asked to check a box on a census, I'd identify myself as "white" for my race. Is Jewish really an ethnicity?

What about my nephews? My sister married a mostly secular Christian and had two kids, who have grown up pretty much without religion. They have secular style celebrations for the holidays of both religions, putting up a Christmas tree, lighting a Menorah, getting presents on both holidays, eating matzah during Passover, and getting Easter baskets full of candy. But they've never gone to church or synagogue, except during family celebrations like weddings and funerals for more religious family members, and never received any religious schooling. Would anyone consider them Jewish?

I guess once I embraced the atheist label, I rejected the Jewish one, and now I don't understand why other "secular Jews" don't do the same. I guess being Jewish is part of my cultural heritage, but it just doesn't seem like a big deal that's worth preserving. The place where I grew up is part of my heritage, too, and that plays just as big, if not bigger, a part in my world view and how I relate to others. To me, the words "Jew" and "Jewish" should only be used for actual believers of the religion.

I suspect that for some the consideration is halachic, ie. your sister's kids would be halachically considered Jewish for all intents and purposes. So for those of the religious persuasions, that is a consideration.

For those that are secular, I imagine that identifying as Jewish has to do with identifying with a heritage/culture. Probably, its a psychological thing. I think it is similar to how many black people identify themselves as African-American as opposed to a black American even being second and third generation Americans.

 

[Fromper]

"should" ?

You are free to self identify as you wish …

… so are the rest of us. L'shalom.​

Perhaps "should" was too strong a word. I just don't see the point in identifying oneself with a religion that you don't follow.

 

[Akivah]

So I've been thinking about this lately. The words "Jew" and "Jewish" have multiple meanings. One meaning is religious, and the other is ethnic/cultural.

Personally, I questioned the religious stuff...[snip]

If asked to provide a list of words that describe myself...[snip]

I guess once I embraced the atheist label, I rejected the Jewish one, and now I don't understand why other "secular Jews" don't do the same...[snip]

To me, the words "Jew" and "Jewish" should only be used for actual believers of the religion.

As you first stated, the words Jew and Jewish have multiple meanings. Other people with different circumstances and experiences from you, still choose to identify themselves as being Jewish, despite not believing in G-d. So what's the problem?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps "should" was too strong a word. I just don't see the point in identifying oneself with a religion that you don't follow.

Then don't.

 

[Levite]

A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who has been properly converted according to halachah.

That identity has nothing to do with their observance, or their belief in God, or anything else. It is simply how Jewish law defines who is and is not a member of the Jewish People.

That said, anyone who may fit that definition and yet feel disinclined to claim it is under no compulsion to do so. It's a free country.

 

[Avi1001]

So I've been thinking about this lately. The words "Jew" and "Jewish" have multiple meanings. One meaning is religious, and the other is ethnic/cultural. There are "secular Jews" who have given up on the religious belief, but refuse to give up the cultural identity of being Jewish.

Howdy, Fromper, and welcome to the Jewish DIR , also known as the Yiddish insane asylum.

You started on one of our favorite debate topics. Indeed, I am a "cultural Jew", who enjoys my gefilte fish, choroset, and an occasional ham and cheese !

Personally, I questioned the religious stuff and wondered if God was real even as a kid. I was pretty much a "secular Jew" most of my life, but it took until well into my 30s to embrace the atheist label. These days, when filling out any sort of survey, census, etc that asks religion, I check the "atheist" or "none" box. I don't even consider checking the "Jewish" box any more, despite having done so for years, even after I stopped believing in God.

No worries, we have OJ's, CJ's, RJ's, and even a Haredi over here. And I am everything else !

If asked to provide a list of words that describe myself, I'd probably start with straight, white, male, vegetarian, atheist, and American, before moving on to stuff about my career and hobbies. The word "Jewish" wouldn't even occur to me as one to include any more. I guess I'm still Jewish ethnically, and I've got the big nose to prove it. But asked to check a box on a census, I'd identify myself as "white" for my race. Is Jewish really an ethnicity?

Have you considered a nose job ?

What about my nephews? My sister married a mostly secular Christian and had two kids, who have grown up pretty much without religion. They have secular style celebrations for the holidays of both religions, putting up a Christmas tree, lighting a Menorah, getting presents on both holidays, eating matzah during Passover, and getting Easter baskets full of candy. But they've never gone to church or synagogue, except during family celebrations like weddings and funerals for more religious family members, and never received any religious schooling. Would anyone consider them Jewish?

Your family is more religious than most in our DIR !

I guess once I embraced the atheist label, I rejected the Jewish one, and now I don't understand why other "secular Jews" don't do the same. I guess being Jewish is part of my cultural heritage, but it just doesn't seem like a big deal that's worth preserving. The place where I grew up is part of my heritage, too, and that plays just as big, if not bigger, a part in my world view and how I relate to others. To me, the words "Jew" and "Jewish" should only be used for actual believers of the religion.

By a "believer in the religion", do you mean someone who prefers lean corned beef over the fatty pastrami ?

 

[RabbiO]

Avi,

At the risk of sounding like a kvetchy nudge - which because of my age I'm entitled to be anyway ---

Fromper comes to the DIR and contributes by initiating a Who is a Jew thread, to which he posts a rather thoughtful, honest and open piece about himself and his position on the issue.

As I recall you said you were trying to get Fromper to participate on the Judaism DIR, but you were concerned that he would be put off and possibly feel unwelcome and disrepected because of my antediluvian attitudes.

How's that worked out?

I've called Fromper's piece "thoughtful, honest and open."

On the other hand, or so it appears to me, in your attempt to be humorous you've unintentionally trivialized his self-examination and his present understanding of who he is and where he is at.

(Face it, there is a reason why neither you nor I have been invited to appear on Comedy Central. There is a reason why neither of us should quit the day job.)

 

[Fromper]

Have you considered a nose job ?

My sister says she'd have gotten it fixed if it were her. I'm actually kinda proud of my big, Jewish nose, though. I look exactly like my grandfather, who had the same nose. I'm also the same height and build, as well as having his hairline, thankfully. The man still had a full head of hair when he died at 92. Hopefully, I inherited his longevity, too.

Your family is more religious than most in our DIR !

If you think so, then I'm explaining it wrong.

By a "believer in the religion", do you mean someone who prefers lean corned beef over the fatty pastrami ?

As a vegetarian, I'm not qualified to answer that.

The only ways my cultural Judaism manifests these days is that I'm a snob about the quality of bagels I'll eat, and I'll have the occasional potato knish. But I'm also a snob about pizza and Chinese food quality. So I think that makes me more of a cultural New Yorker than cultural Jew, despite having lived in the "southern New York" section of Florida for MUCH longer than the short time I actually lived in NY as a baby.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To me, the words "Jew" and "Jewish" should only be used for actual believers of the religion.

A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who has been properly converted according to halachah.
That identity has nothing to do with their observance, or their belief in God, or anything else. It is simply how Jewish law defines who is and is not a member of the Jewish People.
That said, anyone who may fit that definition and yet feel disinclined to claim it is under no compulsion to do so. It's a free country.

The only ways my cultural Judaism manifests these days is that I'm a snob about the quality of bagels I'll eat, and I'll have the occasional potato knish.

Are you in substantial agreement with Levite's post?

 

[Fromper]

Are you in substantial agreement with Levite's post?

That anyone can call themselves anything? Sure. Not only am I an American, but I've always thought the First Amendment was one of the best parts of our Constitution.

I just don't get why non-religious people choose to associate themselves with a religious word. I'm proud to be an atheist, and I wish there were more people who embraced their non-religiosity.

 

[metis]

I just don't get why non-religious people choose to associate themselves with a religious word. I'm proud to be an atheist, and I wish there were more people who embraced their non-religiosity.

How about non-theists (agnostics)?

 

[RabbiO]

Avi,

By the way, I'm still trying to figure who you meant when you said that Fromper's family was more religious than most of the families of those who post on this DIR.

 

[metis]

If some were to ask me if I'm "religious", I'm honestly not sure that I can actually answer that. Sorry again to be a pain in the butt (notice I used the nicest of the terms for this ), but before Avi and others can maybe deal with that question, they may have to define how they are actually using that term.

[Vern slowly crawls back into his cave]

 

[RabbiO]

If some were to ask me if I'm "religious", I'm honestly not sure that I can actually answer that. Sorry again to be a pain in the butt (notice I used the nicest of the terms for this ), but before Avi and others can maybe deal with that question, they may have to define how they are actually using that term.

It may simply be another ill fated attempt by Avi at humor. Avi's remark was prompted by Fromper describing his sister's family in this way - "They have secular style celebrations for the holidays of both religions, putting up a Christmas tree, lighting a Menorah, getting presents on both holidays, eating matzah during Passover, and getting Easter baskets full of candy. But they've never gone to church or synagogue, except during family celebrations like weddings and funerals for more religious family members."

If I do take Avi seriously and try to come up with a wholely Jewish equivalent of Fromper's family, it might look like this - lighting a hanukkiah, eating matzah on Passover, getting a box of hamentaschen on Purim, eating a cheese sandwich on Shavuot, saying Shannah Tovah so someone they see walking toward a synagogue on Rosh HaShannah.

Using that paradigm, whose families of the people who populate the DIR are less religious??

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I just don't get why non-religious people choose to associate themselves with a religious word. I'm proud to be an atheist, and I wish there were more people who embraced their non-religiosity.

You insist that "Jew" is a "religious word" and then protest - and you choose to do so in the Judaism DIR. There is a rather sad irony in all of this.

 

[Yosef-Firstborn]

I didn't know how to grapple with this odd recurring question we all face, until I heard the full explanation of the "it's a tribe" argument, and Judaism basically being from a time when religion and ethnicity/nationality were assumed to go hand-in-hand, inextricably tied with each other. Most such national-religions (each nationality having its own deities) have died out, but we know Judaism has survived through the millennia. (Excuse me if I've misrepresented the concept.)

Since then, it's never seemed like a contradiction to me.

 

[Levite]

I didn't know how to grapple with this odd recurring question we all face, until I heard the full explanation of the "it's a tribe" argument, and Judaism basically being from a time when religion and ethnicity/nationality were assumed to go hand-in-hand, inextricably tied with each other. Most such national-religions (each nationality having its own deities) have died out, but we know Judaism has survived through the millennia. (Excuse me if I've misrepresented the concept.)

Since then, it's never seemed like a contradiction to me.

No, you pretty much got it right. Technically, we call such a situation a socioreligious ethnicity. A group of people whose identity combines elements of what we would consider a religion, a cultural ethnicity, and a nationality.

One of the reasons that individuals sometimes become confused about Judaism and Jewish identity is that we don't even teach this idea well in the Jewish world, and it's definitely adequately introduced in the non-Jewish world. So people assume Judaism is just a religion, like Christianity or Buddhism, or they assume it's just a cultural ethnicity, like being French or Russian; or they simply associate it with the State of Israel and Zionism. But it's something more than any of those things, and includes elements of all of them. There are very few socioreligious ethnicities left in the Western world, and most of them are the remnants of colonized indigenous populations. The Jewish People are a rarity in that way (and in other ways, I think).