Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[loverOfTruth]

The John 20:28 scripture states that Thomas called Jesus "God" right to his face. If Jesus isn't God, then I would expect Jesus to say "Now just a second, Thomas...I am not God, there is only one God, and that is my Father", or something along those lines. I mean after all, calling someone God besides the Father would be blasphamy, especially from a Jewish perspective. But instead of rebuking Thomas for calling him God, what did Jesus say? He said "You have seen, therefore you believe; blessed are those who have not seen, and STILL believe". No rebuke there.

It is often claimed that since Thomas referred to Jesus as "My God, my Lord (John 20:28)," that Jesus was God. An ignorance of the context of the verse and of Christian doctrine prompts this claim. The context of the verse talks about an unbelieving Thomas being surprised when Jesus offers him evidence.
The exclamation, "My God," on his part was just astonishment. We use such exclamations everyday while talking to people. This doesn't mean that the person we are talking to is God. For example, I see John cutting his wrist with a Rambo knife. I say: "My God, John what are you doing?" Do I mean that John is God? Of course not. Similar is the use of the expression by Thomas.

It becomes clear when you read 1 Corinthians 8:6 : "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." that Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time - in John 20:28, it was used just as an expression of shock with an '!'. Lord doesn't mean God, it could be like Master also.

As I told you on a previous post, Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus and God the Father are the same PERSON...we believe that Jesus and the Father are two seperate beings, both whom share the title of "God", because of their nature. Both are equally God, and the Holy Spirit is also.

If they are 2 or 3 different PERSONs and ONE(father) has a higher authority than the others, then it would make the others with less authority/knowledge less of a God not equally God.

 

[Ingledsva]

And John 1:18 PROVES that it does not say what you think. Jesus is NOT God.


John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (unfolds a teaching)


At ant time - hence Jesus is NOT God.

Apparently someone needs to get you up to speed on the Trinity doctrine, because if you were up to speed, you would know that John 1:8 is stating that no one has seen the FATHER, but the Son has been seen.

ING - WRONG! That is not what it says, - the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Not SEEN him, - he εξηγησατο - unfolds - explains about - him.

Plus, Jesus was called God by doubting Thomas (John 20:28)

ING - Theos also means magistrate, judge, godly, exceeding, transcend, etc.

Also, this is a questionable zombie-Jesus section.

and John 5:18 states that just by calling God his "Father", he was making himself equal with God. To be equal with God is to BE God. So once again, it would be nice if you would know about the subject matter before you speak on it.

ING - Jesus said all could be sons/children of God, making God their father. This obviously does not mean any of them, including Jesus, are actual sons.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Now stop with the stupid "taxi cab fallacy." Repeating it does not make it so.

It isn't stupid, it is a accurate depiction of your irrational reasoning.

Again this is bull.



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[Call_of_the_Wild]

It is often claimed that since Thomas referred to Jesus as "My God, my Lord (John 20:28)," that Jesus was God. An ignorance of the context of the verse and of Christian doctrine prompts this claim. The context of the verse talks about an unbelieving Thomas being surprised when Jesus offers him evidence.
The exclamation, "My God," on his part was just astonishment. We use such exclamations everyday while talking to people. This doesn't mean that the person we are talking to is God. For example, I see John cutting his wrist with a Rambo knife. I say: "My God, John what are you doing?" Do I mean that John is God? Of course not. Similar is the use of the expression by Thomas.

All of that would be fine and dandy if the scripture doesn't say "He said to him; My Lord and my God". "Lord and God" are both titles, and scripture states Thomas "SAID TO HIM"...now I know this is turning in to a debate on interpretation, fine...but I have other reasons for believing that Jesus is also God...

Jesus is God based on the fact that only God can come on earth as a man and live a sinless life....all other created beings fall short...now that is all I will say on this particular matter but if you want to be a tough guy and object to it, go right ahead...lets discuss it.

It becomes clear when you read 1 Corinthians 8:6 : "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." that Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time

Wait a minute, Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time? Do some research and see how many times the Father was called "Lord" throughout the OT...so if there is only one Lord, then why was the Father called Lord throughout the OT?

If they are 2 or 3 different PERSONs and ONE(father) has a higher authority than the others, then it would make the others with less authority/knowledge less of a God not equally God.

Well I don't know about less knowledge, but less authority, absolutely. That is why we have scriptures like Phil 2:5-9 explaining how Jesus willfully gave up his authority and subjected himself to the Father. See how that works?

 

[Ingledsva]

...


Wait a minute, Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time? Do some research and see how many times the Father was called "Lord" throughout the OT...so if there is only one Lord, then why was the Father called Lord throughout the OT?


...

Actually the majority of the places the Christian Bible has placed "Lord," or "God," into Tanakh, it is actually YHVH, or Elohiym.



*

 

[mystic64]

It is often claimed that since Thomas referred to Jesus as "My God, my Lord (John 20:28)," that Jesus was God. An ignorance of the context of the verse and of Christian doctrine prompts this claim. The context of the verse talks about an unbelieving Thomas being surprised when Jesus offers him evidence.
The exclamation, "My God," on his part was just astonishment. We use such exclamations everyday while talking to people. This doesn't mean that the person we are talking to is God. For example, I see John cutting his wrist with a Rambo knife. I say: "My God, John what are you doing?" Do I mean that John is God? Of course not. Similar is the use of the expression by Thomas.

It becomes clear when you read 1 Corinthians 8:6 : "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." that Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time - in John 20:28, it was used just as an expression of shock with an '!'. Lord doesn't mean God, it could be like Master also.




If they are 2 or 3 different PERSONs and ONE(father) has a higher authority than the others, then it would make the others with less authority/knowledge less of a God not equally God.

Dang, but you are smart, I am going to have to tred carefully around you .

 

[mystic64]

All of that would be fine and dandy if the scripture doesn't say "He said to him; My Lord and my God". "Lord and God" are both titles, and scripture states Thomas "SAID TO HIM"...now I know this is turning in to a debate on interpretation, fine...but I have other reasons for believing that Jesus is also God...

Jesus is God based on the fact that only God can come on earth as a man and live a sinless life....all other created beings fall short...now that is all I will say on this particular matter but if you want to be a tough guy and object to it, go right ahead...lets discuss it.



Wait a minute, Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time? Do some research and see how many times the Father was called "Lord" throughout the OT...so if there is only one Lord, then why was the Father called Lord throughout the OT?



Well I don't know about less knowledge, but less authority, absolutely. That is why we have scriptures like Phil 2:5-9 explaining how Jesus willfully gave up his authority and subjected himself to the Father. See how that works?

I would like to thank you Call for participating in this topic. Sometimes it is hard to have a discussion if someone is not willing to run thesis against overwhelming antithesis. And Call you are doing an excellent job of presenting the Trinity side of the argument.

 

[loverOfTruth]

All of that would be fine and dandy if the scripture doesn't say "He said to him; My Lord and my God". "Lord and God" are both titles, and scripture states Thomas "SAID TO HIM"...now I know this is turning in to a debate on interpretation, fine...but I have other reasons for believing that Jesus is also God...

Jesus is God based on the fact that only God can come on earth as a man and live a sinless life....all other created beings fall short...now that is all I will say on this particular matter but if you want to be a tough guy and object to it, go right ahead...lets discuss it.

Sure. let's discuss. Jesus(pbuh) was created and needed a woman's womb to come into existence, so he was not God.

All the Prophets were sinless and pure, it doesn’t mean they were God - as simple as that.

Wait a minute, Jesus cannot be God and Lord at the same time? Do some research and see how many times the Father was called "Lord" throughout the OT...so if there is only one Lord, then why was the Father called Lord throughout the OT?

Those were not my words that God and Lord has to be separate. I was just showing you the contradiction from your own scripture. Given that contradiction, you cannot emphatically claim what you were claiming. I personally agree that Lord can be sometimes used for God and sometimes for people as in Master/Teacher.

Well I don't know about less knowledge, but less authority, absolutely. That is why we have scriptures like Phil 2:5-9 explaining how Jesus willfully gave up his authority and subjected himself to the Father. See how that works?

I don't know about you - but most people think of God (at a minimum) as All Knowing, All Powerful, and The Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it.

Jesus(pbuh) was not All Powerful, otherwise, he would not have prayed to God let alone ask for help.
"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God." Luke 6:12

"And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?&#8221"
Mark 15:34

Jesus(pbuh) was not All Knowing, as he stated, he didn't know when the Hour is going to be.
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32

Jesus(pbuh) was certainly not the Creator as he himself was created and came out of a human womb. Moreover, the Creator must know when the creation will come to an end and he didn't know that.

Hence, it is quite obvious, as to how Jesus(pbuh) was nowhere near the definition of who God is. Rather, he only preached One God.
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Mark 12:29-30)
This was the best opportunity for him to say to his disciples that but remember there are other TWO and don't forget to love/worship them. But he didn't say anything like that.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I would like to thank you Call for participating in this topic. Sometimes it is hard to have a discussion if someone is not willing to run thesis against overwhelming antithesis. And Call you are doing an excellent job of presenting the Trinity side of the argument.

Dudeee, the concept of the Trinity was one of my fasinations coming up as a young apologist, especially since Jehovah Witness's are my arch nemesis, and they absolutely oppose the Trinity so I've had many clashes with them throughout my apologetic journey. I am still fasinated by the subject, and I am a big supporter of the doctrine, and I will continue to defend it...and I've even created my own defense of it.

I also want to thank you for the compliment.

 

[mystic64]

Guys, this is the scripture that started it all: John 1:1-5

1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

This scripture is the foundation for both sides of the Trinity arguement. So the question becomes, "How could this scripture "not" mean that Lord Jesus was God?" Lord Jesus was the Word and the Word was God. God became flesh and then sacrificed Itself for the sins of Mankind. And the darkness did not comprehend it .

 

[mystic64]

Dudeee, the concept of the Trinity was one of my fasinations coming up as a young apologist, especially since Jehovah Witness's are my arch nemesis, and they absolutely oppose the Trinity so I've had many clashes with them throughout my apologetic journey. I am still fasinated by the subject, and I am a big supporter of the doctrine, and I will continue to defend it...and I've even created my own defense of it.

I also want to thank you for the compliment.

you are welcome. To me it is a game and I can usually find something to argue either side of most aguements. Admittedly I am not the brightest bulb in the candelabra, but I do enjoy the game . PS: I have spent most of my life argueing with the Jehovah Witnesses. Discussing scripture with them is excellent training . And in all fairness my heart goes out to them, they put up with a lot of abuse in their effort to witness for Lord Jesus. I don't agree with them, but I do admire their persistence and I have had a lot of close friends that were Jehovah Witnesses.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Guys, this is the scripture that started it all: John 1:1-5

1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

This scripture is the foundation for both sides of the Trinity arguement. So the question becomes, "How could this scripture "not" mean that Lord Jesus was God?" Lord Jesus was the Word and the Word was God. God became flesh and then sacrificed Itself for the sins of Mankind. And the darkness did not comprehend it .

Those are not the words of Jesus(pbuh) not even of Apostle John's.

From: Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus's innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it,[12][13][14][15][16][17] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90-100 AD."

Had it been Jesus's(pbuh) unambiguous statement about he being God, that would be a different story.

However, you might be surprised to know that the Qur'an says something quite astonishing about that 'Word'. Qur'an mentions Jesus(pbuh) as 'Word from God' :

“…O Mary! Behold, God gives you good news of a word from Him, who shall become known as the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary...” (Quran 3:45)

“…The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His(God's) word which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

Further, the Qur'an explains what that Word is :
“Indeed the likeness of Jesus to God as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.” (Quran 3:59)

Peace.

Edit : Just came across this article which is based on New Testament Scholar Bart Ehrman's How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee: Bart D. Ehrman: 9780061778186: Amazon.com: Books
And what he concluded is more like the Islamic version that is : "First he was a prophet. People made him a God." and that Jesus(pbuh) talked about another "Son of Man who was soon to bring judgment upon the earth."
You can read the article here : Did Jesus think he was God? New insights on Jesus’ own self-image - Salon.com

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Sure. let's discuss. Jesus(pbuh) was created and needed a woman's womb to come into existence, so he was not God.

Ok, so lets pretend that Jesus' existence didn't precede the virgin birth, even though what Jesus said in John 17:5 states otherwise.

All the Prophets were sinless and pure, it doesn’t mean they were God - as simple as that.

So all the Prophets were sinless? So since Jesus and the Father are also sinless and pure, are you stating that man has the capability to be on the same level of moral perfection as God and Jesus? Hmmm, radical claim, wouldn't you say?

Those were not my words that God and Lord has to be separate. I was just showing you the contradiction from your own scripture. Given that contradiction, you cannot emphatically claim what you were claiming. I personally agree that Lord can be sometimes used for God and sometimes for people as in Master/Teacher.

Yeah, lets make it seem as if the bible authors blatantly contradicted themselves and act as if it isn't our interpretation of the scripture which is in error.

I don't know about you - but most people think of God (at a minimum) as All Knowing, All Powerful, and The Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it.

I agree, and all of those attributes of God, Jesus also has.

Jesus(pbuh) was not All Powerful, otherwise, he would not have prayed to God let alone ask for help.
"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God." Luke 6:12

Jesus became a human, and as a human Jesus obeyed the limitations of being a human..and scripture tells us that Jesus was equal to God in power before he came to earth as human (Phil 2:5-9).

"And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)"
Mark 15:34

Point? Next you will be quoting scriptures of Jesus getting hungry and tired and claiming that he couldn't be God because God doesn't get hungry or tired...and I will say...HE WAS A HUMAN...AND HUMANS GET HUNGRY AND TIRED.

Jesus(pbuh) was not All Knowing, as he stated, he didn't know when the Hour is going to be.
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32

Jesus does know all things John 21:15-17

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Second, if we are going to truly take everything literally, then not even the Father knows all things, according to Rev 19:11-13

12 His (Jesus) eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He (Jesus) has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13

Jesus(pbuh) was certainly not the Creator as he himself was created and came out of a human womb. Moreover, the Creator must know when the creation will come to an end and he didn't know that.

Then that will contradict John 1:3, which states...

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Hence, it is quite obvious, as to how Jesus(pbuh) was nowhere near the definition of who God is. Rather, he only preached One God.

Jesus was worshipped by man (Matt 28:17) and angels (Heb 1:6) and was even prayed to (Acts 7:59). Last I checked, it is a sin to render worship to anyone other than God...and the same thing applies to prayer. Hmmmm, so I would think that Jesus is/was near the definition of who God is.

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

He also said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Hmmmm.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Mark 12:29-30)
This was the best opportunity for him to say to his disciples that but remember there are other TWO and don't forget to love/worship them. But he didn't say anything like that.

What?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

you are welcome. To me it is a game and I can usually find something to argue either side of most aguements. Admittedly I am not the brightest bulb in the candelabra, but I do enjoy the game .

No doubt there are areas of my game I need to improve on...but I've made a lot of progress from when I first started to now. Things can only go uphill from here.

PS: I have spent most of my life argueing with the Jehovah Witnesses. Discussing scripture with them is excellent training .

Me too!!! If I had a "greatest hits" collection of my exchanges with people...some of my greatest hits would come from clashes with them haha. As you said, it is good training.

And in all fairness my heart goes out to them, they put up with a lot of abuse in their effort to witness for Lord Jesus. I don't agree with them, but I do admire their persistence and I have had a lot of close friends that were Jehovah Witnesses.

Exactly, when it comes to doing the grunt work and getting out there and talking to people, they are #1 in my book. However, the vast majority of their entire system I disagree with, and sometimes I wonder if they are even part of the Christian sect. Some of my favorite cousins are Jehovah Witnesses, and just recently I had a exchange with one of my cousins over the phone, and you can tell that he was reading from Watchtower literature as he spoke....brainwashed, man.

 

[mystic64]

No doubt there are areas of my game I need to improve on...but I've made a lot of progress from when I first started to now. Things can only go uphill from here.



Me too!!! If I had a "greatest hits" collection of my exchanges with people...some of my greatest hits would come from clashes with them haha. As you said, it is good training.



Exactly, when it comes to doing the grunt work and getting out there and talking to people, they are #1 in my book. However, the vast majority of their entire system I disagree with, and sometimes I wonder if they are even part of the Christian sect. Some of my favorite cousins are Jehovah Witnesses, and just recently I had a exchange with one of my cousins over the phone, and you can tell that he was reading from Watchtower literature as he spoke....brainwashed, man.

Most of Christianity considers the Jehovah Witnesses a cult and not of Christianity. At the same time a lot of the world only knows Christianity these days as Jehovah Witnesses because of their missionary zeal. The main problem with the Jehovah Witness organization is that it is founded on the belief that we are in the last days because their two magazines are the two witnesses foretold in the book Revelation. The evidence for this is extremely thin to say the least. And in the beginning they expected things to be in the "instanter", which didn't happen. So now they are having to retool their approach to the long haul which over time negates the two magazines as the two witnesses because the two witnesses were given a set time frame to be operational. Things are now slowly becoming, Jesus will return when the word of Jesus (their version) is known to the whole world, and they are the messengers witnessing for Jesus. The leaders of the Jehovah Witnesses organization are very smart and they are not going to go "quietly into the night". The old Jehovah Witnesses that we use to know and love are now becoming the New and improved Jehovah Witnesses that we know and love . The new generation of Jehovah Witnesses are not going to be the same as the old generation. The focus of their message is now moving more toward love and away from fear which is moving the watchtower from primary to secondary and causing a bit of friction between the two sides of the Jehovah Witness leardership.

 

[mystic64]

Those are not the words of Jesus(pbuh) not even of Apostle John's.

From: Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus's innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it,[12][13][14][15][16][17] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90-100 AD."

Had it been Jesus's(pbuh) unambiguous statement about he being God, that would be a different story.

However, you might be surprised to know that the Qur'an says something quite astonishing about that 'Word'. Qur'an mentions Jesus(pbuh) as 'Word from God' :

“…O Mary! Behold, God gives you good news of a word from Him, who shall become known as the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary...” (Quran 3:45)

“…The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His(God's) word which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

Further, the Qur'an explains what that Word is :
“Indeed the likeness of Jesus to God as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.” (Quran 3:59)

Peace.

Edit : Just came across this article which is based on New Testament Scholar Bart Ehrman's How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee: Bart D. Ehrman: 9780061778186: Amazon.com: Books
And what he concluded is more like the Islamic version that is : "First he was a prophet. People made him a God." and that Jesus(pbuh) talked about another "Son of Man who was soon to bring judgment upon the earth."
You can read the article here : Did Jesus think he was God? New insights on Jesus’ own self-image - Salon.com

Hindu scripture says that Krishna was God in carnate. That would make Jesus the son of Krishna. LoverofTruth, what is you point ?

 

[Ingledsva]

Those are not the words of Jesus(pbuh) not even of Apostle John's.

From: Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus's innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it,[12][13][14][15][16][17] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90-100 AD."

Had it been Jesus's(pbuh) unambiguous statement about he being God, that would be a different story.

However, you might be surprised to know that the Qur'an says something quite astonishing about that 'Word'. Qur'an mentions Jesus(pbuh) as 'Word from God' :

“…O Mary! Behold, God gives you good news of a word from Him, who shall become known as the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary...” (Quran 3:45)

“…The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His(God's) word which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

Further, the Qur'an explains what that Word is :
“Indeed the likeness of Jesus to God as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.” (Quran 3:59)

Peace.

Edit : Just came across this article which is based on New Testament Scholar Bart Ehrman's How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee: Bart D. Ehrman: 9780061778186: Amazon.com: Books
And what he concluded is more like the Islamic version that is : "First he was a prophet. People made him a God." and that Jesus(pbuh) talked about another "Son of Man who was soon to bring judgment upon the earth."
You can read the article here : Did Jesus think he was God? New insights on Jesus’ own self-image - Salon.com

Yep, they don't seem to understand that Jesus was Jewish, and there would have been only ONE God for him. He would not have called himself God, or a trinity, etc.

The later writers of the gospels were writing from a more foreign perspective, and trying to get the concepts across.

If you talked to a Jewish follower you would probably get that the "logos" is Divine Law, that brought everything into being.

And that is what it says -

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made.

Modern Bibles put "Him" instead of "it." Older Bibles like the Bishops and Geneva (from the fifteen hundreds,) use "IT."

It says ALL come into being from "IT." - and ALL are not God. It says John came first, - and John isn't God, - and it isn't saying Jesus is either.

It is actually saying all have a Divine spark because they are a creation of Divine Law/God.


As I've said before, people need to look at the Greek.



*

 

[loverOfTruth]

Sorry about the delayed reply. I had been sick for a while and then got busy.

Ok, so lets pretend that Jesus' existence didn't precede the virgin birth, even though what Jesus said in John 17:5 states otherwise.

No, we don't need to pretend anything. God has knowledge of all those He will create before they are even created, what is so special about that. God has foreknowledge of everything and interestingly we see something similar to the case of Jeremiah.

"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" Jeremiah 1: 4
So even Jeremiah existed before his birth. So he is God too ?

So all the Prophets were sinless? So since Jesus and the Father are also sinless and pure, are you stating that man has the capability to be on the same level of moral perfection as God and Jesus? Hmmm, radical claim, wouldn't you say?

No I didn't say that. I said 'All the Prophets were sinless and pure'. God is at the highest level of purity, moral perfection and magnificence. No human is at that level. Next comes the Prophets/Messengers of God. So Jesus(pbuh) along with all the other Prophets fall in that category. By definition, since the Prophets are supposed to represent God and teach the highest moral teachings, they should be sinless - so was Jesus(pbuh) AND Mary(pbuh). That still doesn't make him God.

Yeah, lets make it seem as if the bible authors blatantly contradicted themselves and act as if it isn't our interpretation of the scripture which is in error.

No I am not saying that...here are some quotes from New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman :
"Through his studies, Ehrman determined that the Bible was not free of mistakes:We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently, in thousands of ways." [1]

"Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later-much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places . . . Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament." [1]

[1]http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/

I'll just give you one example that it is the actual text and not interpretation that is contradictory and inconsistent. Let's look at the story of 'The Triumphal Entry'. Jesus(pbuh) rode into Jerusalem on how many animals?

May be One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf Luke 19:3 5). And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.
Or may be Two - a colt and an donkey (Matthew 21:7). They brought the donkey and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.

And I just showed you one example for argument's sake. If you are interested, I can show you a lot more.

I agree, and all of those attributes of God, Jesus also has.

Jesus became a human, and as a human Jesus obeyed the limitations of being a human..and scripture tells us that Jesus was equal to God in power before he came to earth as human (Phil 2:5-9).

First of all, that is not Jesus's(pbuh) statement ... so that doesn't prove that he claimed to be All Powerful - he never did. On the contrary, Jesus(pbuh) stated :

"Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me'." John 7:16

"So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." John 8:28

So if he was all powerful and equal to God, at a minimum (even after taking human form), he wouldn't need to be taught. He clearly says that his teachings come from the One who sent him. So that nullifies Jesus(pbuh) being All Powerful.

Point? Next you will be quoting scriptures of Jesus getting hungry and tired and claiming that he couldn't be God because God doesn't get hungry or tired...and I will say...HE WAS A HUMAN...AND HUMANS GET HUNGRY AND TIRED.

Yes, and HUMAN is NOT EQUAL to God.

Jesus does know all things John 21:15-17

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Again, Jesus(pbuh) didn't say that he knows everything. On the contrary, he claimed he didn't know the hour. Just not knowing one thing is enough to make him not All Knowing. Moreover, as the other scriptures I quoted above shows that all his teachings are from the Father(God) - so no knowledge is his own. Big disqualifying factor for a God.

Second, if we are going to truly take everything literally, then not even the Father knows all things, according to Rev 19:11-13

12 His (Jesus) eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He (Jesus) has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13

That verse doesn't explain anything. If anything, it shows another contradiction. First it says, no one knows its name but he and then it says his name is Word of God. Plus, once again this is not Jesus's(pbuh) statement.

Then that will contradict John 1:3, which states...

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Another translation says :
"And with this Word,
God created all things.
Nothing was made
without the Word.
Everything that was created" John 1:3 [1]

Now you see for yourself how things are changed...

John 1:3 CEV - And with this Word, God created all - Bible Gateway

So it remains that Jesus(pbuh) was Created and he was certainly not the Creator.

Jesus was worshipped by man (Matt 28:17) and angels (Heb 1:6) and was even prayed to (Acts 7:59). Last I checked, it is a sin to render worship to anyone other than God...and the same thing applies to prayer. Hmmmm, so I would think that Jesus is/was near the definition of who God is.

The word used to describe what people did with Jesus (proskuneo) was also used in Rev 3:9 where God says "...Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, ...to come and bow down (same word-- proskuneo) at your feet...." Therefore Jesus wasn't being worshipped.

Also, similar actions could be found in Genesis 19:1-2

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

So they are God as well ?

He also said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Hmmmm.

This part of the verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context. Even the beginning of the verse clarifies it as it states : "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One." John 10:28-30 It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John's Jesus meant by the word hen ("one") becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles: "That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]" (John 17:22), which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated: "I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]" (John 8:29). Otherwise, if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.

What?

I guess you don't understand the most clear and unambiguous statements of Jesus(pbuh) where he states God is one and you should only Love Him. He didn't even ask people to love the other 2 in the trinity. If they were equally God, I would assume that would be part of the requirements.
Peace.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Hindu scripture says that Krishna was God in carnate. That would make Jesus the son of Krishna. LoverofTruth, what is you point ?

Hindu scripture does not talk about Jesus(pbuh) and the Word - the Qur'an does.

Peace.

 

[mystic64]

Hindu scripture does not talk about Jesus(pbuh) and the Word - the Qur'an does.

Peace.

My point was that the problem with adding non Christian scripture as evidence in this topic is that Baha'i scripture says that their prophet replaces both Prophet Jesus and Propht Mohammad, so with it as evidence there is no longer a discussion here.

 

[loverOfTruth]

My point was that the problem with adding non Christian scripture as evidence in this topic is that Baha'i scripture says that their prophet replaces both Prophet Jesus and Propht Mohammad, so with it as evidence there is no longer a discussion here.

I wasn't quoting the Qur'an as 'evidence'. Of course, if you don't believe in the Qur'an, it is no evidence for you. I was just showing you what the Qur'an talks about the relevant subjects of Jesus(pbuh), Mary(pbuh) and the Word as FYI. Especially because what you were quoting from the Bible regarding that was not even from Jesus's (pbuh) companions' statement let alone from Jesus(pbuh) himself. Basically, I was just pointing out how the Qur'an sets the story straight without adding the complexity of Trinity and hence without departing from Monotheism.

Peace.