Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That sounds almost unbelievable to me. Then again, my raisers would not let me forget or even refuse to share their beliefs.

I knew he didn't go to church, but I didn't know he was an atheist until we were taking care of his funeral arrangements and my Mom started going over some of his instructions.

When she told the officiant - a minister that the funeral home had hired - that there was to be no mention of God in the memorial service, he looked like he was going to have kittens. It was as if she had told him that he had to do the ceremony in a lobster costume.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Admitedly this is difficult to demonstrate objectively. But there is my own personal testimonial; there is Nathan Phelps; there are lots of people I met personally that were seriously emotionally scarred with a fear of hell. And lots of slightly less obvious examples.

There we go. And once again, I don't dispute that it can cause emotional/psychological harm, even severely, I just don't see how that compares to physical violence (especially since physical violence like rape almost always includes a significant emotional/psychological harm component as well).

 

[LuisDantas]

Since apparently it wasn't obvious, Luis, I wasn't taking a survey about whether you're capable of providing an example- I was asking that you give me one.

You must lead a very blessed life then. In any case, I just gave you a few.

 

[LuisDantas]

There we go. And once again, I don't dispute that it can cause emotional/psychological harm, even severely, I just don't see how that compares to physical violence (especially since physical violence like rape almost always includes a significant emotional/psychological harm component as well).

I don't think it compares at all favorably.

 

[LuisDantas]

I knew he didn't go to church, but I didn't know he was an atheist until we were taking care of his funeral arrangements and my Mom started going over some of his instructions.

When she told the officiant - a minister that the funeral home had hired - that there was to be no mention of God in the memorial service, he looked like he was going to have kittens. It was as if she had told him that he had to do the ceremony in a lobster costume.

I'm shocked. That is all but unthinkable to me. The way I see it, talking about one's beliefs (or lack of same) is basic social interaction.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I have no way of comparing it. I'd have to live two lives: One as a theist and the other as an atheist to compare it.

True enough but several people are atheists and get along fine. So what about the reilgion is essential?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm shocked. That is all but unthinkable to me. The way I see it, talking about one's beliefs (or lack of same) is basic social interaction.

Kids take cues from their parents. They didn't talk about religion, so it never occurred to me that I would need to ask.

My Mom went to church off and on. Occasionally, I'd ask to go with her just to see what she did on Sunday mornings (just like I'd ask to go with my Dad to his computer club), but I found it boring, so I only went a few times. I was never made to go; in fact, my Mom never even suggested that I might want to go.

The only person who ever tried to push me in a particular direction on religion was my grandmother.

 

[Me Myself]

The majority of what we perceive and what we know is an opinion, and teaching a child of any opinion in an objective way would be considered brainwashing. Even if I told my child this.

This.

I dont understand why we are treating religion differently than almost any other belief.

The parents have the responsibility to teach their kids all they feel is important. Religion tends to come in here.

Even feeding your kid a specific food is a form of brainwashing.

I remember when I was a child and I figured out why the thing on my plate called "chicken" has the same name than the thing that is alife and moves and all. I remember thinking that if my mom eats it, then it cant be bad.

Why is meat eating any less indoctrinating? Everything that you do next to your child can be called a form of "brainwash" . They dont precisely come teenagers out of the vagina, and they will go out in the world getting info from other people about stuff if you dont give them info yourself.

As a parent, you choose what you believe is the best info and teach that.

Te problem is that there is nothing to "wash" when ey are born. They come here as a clean slate and everything we do makes the slate stop being """clean""" or white or w e.

Te idea of "not brainwashing your kids" is incredibly silly when followed to the extent of only teach them ... What? What is in your opinion the things that should be taught? Science as understood in that moment? Of course we cant teach them morals, this are suective and it would be brainwashing.

Its just silly. For some reason you want to make an exception with teaching religious beliefs that you dont do with teaching all other parental beliefs, and it is just unreal.

 

[Me Myself]

True enough but several people are atheists and get along fine. So what about the reilgion is essential?

Depends on how you define religion. If you mean set of beliefs, you cant live without a set of beliefs. You will get many from parents, many from friends and will edit away.

If you mean belief in supernatural, well, you dont have to, but there are a lot of unnecessary (but not detrimental) beliefs that they will be taught by their parents.

Why make an exception on religious beliefs?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I don't think it compares at all favorably.

I gather that, although its hard to understand how one could come to the opinion that emotional/psychological harm is worse than physical harm AND (arguably more severe) emotional/psychological harm, but OK.

 

[Me Myself]

A pretty bizarre way to use the word "opinion". Is that London is the capital of England an opinion? Or that France has no king? Or that 2+2=5? Or that gravity is inversely proportional to distance? And if these are opinions, then what new word are we going to coin to refer to what we have hitherto referred to as opinions (such as "Coltrane is the best jazz soloist ever")?

I find the teaching of morality to be more fundamental than all of that.

If you can teach them morality that is subjective, why cant you teach them your religion that is also suective?

Simple, you can teach them both. Everytng they learn from you is going to be "brainwashing" anyways.

They are still going to go out to the world and find out which editing of which beliefs they will want to make when they become teens, when this is not allowed and they are extremely prevented away from exterior world (like cases of homeschooling and prevention from contact with anyone except certain specific kinds of persons even when starting teens) THEN we can talk about brainwashing. Not before.

 

[Me Myself]

I gather that, although its hard to understand how one could come to the opinion that emotional/psychological harm is worse than physical harm AND (arguably more severe) emotional/psychological harm, but OK.

i cant understand how would one think otherwise though.

I was spanked as a child around twice, and trust me, I much more wished to be spanked than to be without TV for the day. Its just physical pain. It is just grave when it is so big yhat it causes psychological pain.

Otherwise, its like realising your knees are hurt bad an hour after you fell in the futbol game .

 

[Enai de a lukal]

This.

I dont understand why we are treating religion differently than almost any other belief.

We aren't. If I'm teaching my children my political views as if they were fact, for instance, this would be problematic for the same reasons. Glad we can agree on this point.

Even feeding your kid a specific food is a form of brainwashing.

No, it isn't.

I remember thinking that if my mom eats it, then it cant be bad.

Exactly my point about why brainwashing your kids with your religious beliefs is basically just stacking the odds in your favor- and against theirs.

Its just silly.

What is silly is comparing feeding ones children to indoctrinating them with your religious beliefs before they are old enough to even fully understand what they are being told, much less evaluate it critically. And for what purpose? Ostensibly what DoP said in the OP- to make a nice cozy prison for their mind? What is possibly gained by teaching your child your religious beliefs at an early age as opposed to waiting until they are, say, in their teens?

For some reason you want to make an exception with teaching religious beliefs that you dont do with teaching all other parental beliefs, and it is just unreal.

What is unreal is you ignoring all the actual reasons (not "some reason"- the reasons have been given) people have provided against brainwashing ones children, and dismissing them on the basis of a silly and patently absurd comparison.

 

[LuisDantas]

I gather that, although its hard to understand how one could come to the opinion that emotional/psychological harm is worse than physical harm AND (arguably more severe) emotional/psychological harm, but OK.

Physical harm one knows should not occur. It leads to less inner conflict.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

If you can teach them morality that is subjective, why cant you teach them your religion that is also suective?

Well, most obviously because religion is not subjective in the way that morality is. In most cases, religion consists of (controversial and unestablished if not outright untenable) factual claims, morality does not- e.g. "God exists", "God created the heavens and the earth", "Christ rose from the dead", etc. are not subjective claims.

Simple, you can teach them both. Everytng they learn from you is going to be "brainwashing" anyways.

No, not really- at least not how the word "brainwashing" is ordinarily defined in English. Brainwashing is not equivalent to teaching. Teaching my child how to tie their shoes or do long division is not brainwashing.

They are still going to go out to the world and find out which editing of which beliefs they will want to make when they become teens

No, not necessarily, and not on a level playing field, as I've already pointed out.

I was spanked as a child around twice, and trust me, I much more wished to be spanked than to be without TV for the day. Its just physical pain. It is just grave when it is so big yhat it causes psychological pain.

Um, ok, and being spanked is similar to being raped... How? Perhaps you should re-read the post you're responding to here, because I don't think it took the first time.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Physical harm one knows should not occur. It leads to less inner conflict.

Rape leads to less inner conflict than religious indoctrination? Mmmk... And the severity of physical harm isn't measured by how much inner conflict it creates anyways, but by... you guessed it, the severity of physical harm. If I break my arm, it doesn't make it hurt any less if I experience no inner conflict over it.

In any case, this is sort of a pointless tangent unlikely to be resolved, but I honestly think you are either underplaying the severity of acts like rap, or overplaying religious indoctrination (or perhaps a little of both)- for instance, I'd imagine that anyone who had actually been raped would not only dispute your claim, but be offended by it as well, but that's just my impression.

 

[Me Myself]

Well, most obviously because religion is not subjective in the way that morality is. In most cases, religion consists of (controversial and unestablished if not outright untenable) factual claims, morality does not- e.g. "God exists", "God created the heavens and the earth", "Christ rose from the dead", etc. are not subjective claims.

This is good. This is not. Are statements made as if they were objective. They are not "My personal opinion is that you shouldnt hit your brother" they are "you should not hit your brother" "stop hitting your brother" "if you keep hitting your brother I will x"

Ironically, if you check out techniques used by brainwashing sects you ll notice most of them happen naturaly on a family, because parents have a huge amount of power on the lifes of their kids. This is not news.

Parents can and do use the same techniques to modify behavior. The difference is whether or not the behaviour is damaging.

Ultimately that was the problem with sects: they lead to damaging behaviour.

No, not really- at least not how the word "brainwashing" is ordinarily defined in English. Brainwashing is not equivalent to teaching. Teaching my child how to tie their shoes or do long division is not brainwashing.

Meet the Oxford:


verb
[with object]
pressurize (someone) into adopting radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible means:
people are brainwashed into believing family life is the best
(as noun brainwashing)
victims of brainwashing


As you can read, its pretty hard to "brainwash" something that wasnt there. Unless the kid starts out thinking "I know there has been no one called .jesus that had been crucified and there is nothing like God, and I believe this to be so" then you are not changing any belief of his. You are introducing a new belief in him.

Brainwash is meant for a way in which to put ideas into someone, not to talk about e veracity of such ideas.

The veracity of the ideas have nothing to do with whether it was brainwash or not. The way in which you put those ideas in does.

Um, ok, and being spanked is similar to being raped... How? Perhaps you should re-read the post you're responding to here, because I don't think it took the first time.

The problem of rape is absolutely psychological. What changes is not so much the physical reality but the psychological one. What separates a consensual and pleasurable session of bdsm and rape is something entirely psychological and not physical: consent.

I also wasnt talking specifically about rape but your blanket claim of not being able to imagine how psychological damage could be worse than physical, but maybe I read that wrong? I missed the word rape if it was in there

 

[Me Myself]

Rape leads to less inner conflict than religious indoctrination? Mmmk... And the severity of physical harm isn't measured by how much inner conflict it creates anyways, but by... you guessed it, the severity of physical harm. If I break my arm, it doesn't make it hurt any less if I experience no inner conflict over it.

In any case, this is sort of a pointless tangent unlikely to be resolved, but I honestly think you are either underplaying the severity of acts like rap, or overplaying religious indoctrination (or perhaps a little of both)- for instance, I'd imagine that anyone who had actually been raped would not only dispute your claim, but be offended by it as well, but that's just my impression.

Rape is psychological torture, not physical one. The damage that rape does may not be physical at all. Furthermore, you can rape someone with almost no or none physical harm. Threaten the life of the kids of a mother and make her believe so and then tell her she needs to have sex with you or you ll kill the kids.

There may be no physical violence at all, but you scarred theother for life, and it had nothing to do with physical pain.

On e other side of the coin, masochists do exist, and several sports include pain but are still very enjoyable to those playing them because the pleasure is greater than the pain.

 

[Me Myself]

Saying no form of indoctrination could ever be worst than any form of rape is just a shot in the dark.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Depends on how you define religion. If you mean set of beliefs, you cant live without a set of beliefs. You will get many from parents, many from friends and will edit away.

If you mean belief in supernatural, well, you dont have to, but there are a lot of unnecessary (but not detrimental) beliefs that they will be taught by their parents.

Why make an exception on religious beliefs?

At least in my case, I don't make an exception for religion. I have problems with parents trying to choose their child's religion, political affiliation, career, or spouse, etc. All of it's objectionable.