Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[The Sum of Awe]

The majority of what we perceive and what we know is an opinion, and teaching a child of any opinion in an objective way would be considered brainwashing. Even if I told my child this.

 

[1137]

I don't see how teaching your child your religion is limiting a child's view of the world. You get the same education whether your parents follow a faith or not. Children still meet people of other faiths, other traditions, etc. Unless you keep a child away from peers then you really can't stop them from learning anything.

By the time peers become a bigger influence than parents the child will be able to think abstractly and look internally. The magic age is approximately 12 years old.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

There are as far as I can discern two relevant factors: Subject and Intent

In terms of subject, I refer to the care giver's perception of some aspect that they consider would be in the child's welfare to be conditioned to. However, it is worth noting the care giver's perceptions may be flawed and society may well have both a duty (as another care giver) and an interest (since the child as a member of that society may contribute to in the future) to intervene to prevent certain aspects of such conditioning.

In terms of Intent, I believe it is extremely relevant to differentiate between intentional and unintentional conditioning. I agree that it is unavoidable that you will teach them things simply by being in proximity not to mention being a figure of authority (and implied to be authoritative) thus even unintentional 'lessons' might be forthcoming - for example raising one's voice when in an argument etc. This is remarkably different than intended or directed conditioning where through planned reward, reinforcement and or punishment one fosters certain modes of thinking or behaving.

Conditioning a child about a subject with predominantly subjective advantages and predominantly objective disadvantages is either neglect (if unintentional) or abuse (if intentional).

 

[ChristineES]

Teaching them skills and social functions are different than religion. Religion is not essential. We have learned manners as we are a social species and therefore require complex rules in our society to maintain order. Teaching morals is an innately good and functional purpose. Its possible the religion developed from this as a consequence creating axiom to keep people in line.

Its common practice to make up stories to get children to behave. The boogyman is one for example. What makes the boogyman any different than Satan ?

I don't totally agree. My faith is essential to me. I never saw it as "keeping me in line". I learned my values and ethics from my mother and she was an atheist and I didn't really have to do much changing with I started with my faith, so I guess I agree somewhat, however. I stuck by mother's "lessons" such as "speak respectfully to elders", "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all", "don't drag your feet when you walk" and all sorts of lessons we learn from our parents.

 

[LuisDantas]

As big as rape? Murder? Theft, even?

Yes, of course. I sincerely hope you are fortunate to the point of never having met fanatical parents. They can cause a lot of damage.

That's more what I had in mind- clearly there's a spectrum, and some cases are more egregious than others; but even at its worst, brainwashing ones children probably is nowhere near as morally wrong as rape or murder.

I respectfully disagree. It isn't that unusual for it to be more serious than rape, IMO.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

The majority of what we perceive and what we know is an opinion

A pretty bizarre way to use the word "opinion". Is that London is the capital of England an opinion? Or that France has no king? Or that 2+2=5? Or that gravity is inversely proportional to distance? And if these are opinions, then what new word are we going to coin to refer to what we have hitherto referred to as opinions (such as "Coltrane is the best jazz soloist ever")?

 

[LuisDantas]

Not sure what that has to do with indoctrinating ones children with your religious beliefs... Not only are values not necessarily related to any religious beliefs, most religious ethics are pernicious, either explicitly or implicitly. The world would be a much better place if children stopped learning morality from religion.

That is arguably true, but the distinction between morality and religion is so artificial as to make the whole exercise impracticable. You are using a very specific, arguably contradictory understanding of what "religion" as a word means.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Yes, of course. I sincerely hope you are fortunate to the point of never having met fanatical parents. They can cause a lot of damage.

I don't dispute that, I just don't see how it could even approximate the level of harm present in rape, murder, etc. even in the most extreme cases, unless it involves more than just indoctrination (e.g. physical abuse/neglect).

I respectfully disagree. It isn't that unusual for it to be more serious than rape, IMO.

Can you give an example?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I don't totally agree. My faith is essential to me. I never saw it as "keeping me in line". I learned my values and ethics from my mother and she was an atheist and I didn't really have to do much changing with I started with my faith, so I guess I agree somewhat, however. I stuck by mother's "lessons" such as "speak respectfully to elders", "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all", "don't drag your feet when you walk" and all sorts of lessons we learn from our parents.

But my question to you is as a survival mecanism how has being Religious helped you in any way as a contrast to if you were an atheist?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't dispute that, I just don't see how it could even approximate the level of harm present in rape, murder, etc. even in the most extreme cases, unless it involves more than just indoctrination (e.g. physical abuse/neglect).


Can you give an example?

Far too many, unfortunately.

 

[ChristineES]

But my question to you is as a survival mecanism how has being Religious helped you in any way as a contrast to if you were an atheist?

I have no way of comparing it. I'd have to live two lives: One as a theist and the other as an atheist to compare it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

A pretty bizarre way to use the word "opinion". Is that London is the capital of England an opinion? Or that France has no king? Or that 2+2=5? Or that gravity is inversely proportional to distance? And if these are opinions, then what new word are we going to coin to refer to what we have hitherto referred to as opinions (such as "Coltrane is the best jazz soloist ever")?

You are speaking of objective things, which is why those that you listed are not opinions. If you averagely go a whole day without speaking a word of what is your opinion, and yes, by the correct understanding of the word, then I would be thrilled.

 

[1137]

You are speaking of objective things, which is why those that you listed are not opinions.

Yeah I didn't understand the argument. Perception is certainly drenched in subjectivity, and teaching supernatural, untestable, belief as objective is nowhere near the same as teaching a child that 2+2=4.

Good to "see" you btw

 

[LuisDantas]

But my question to you is as a survival mecanism how has being Religious helped you in any way as a contrast to if you were an atheist?

Maybe it is just me, but that is an odd question.

 

[Falvlun]

The majority of what we perceive and what we know is an opinion, and teaching a child of any opinion in an objective way would be considered brainwashing. Even if I told my child this.

I think that waters down the meaning of brainwashing.

If that's brainwashing, then all of us are brainwashed. The word loses all distinctive meaning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For the record, I didn't actually teach my children my faith, they just know that I followed it. My daughter became a Christian on her own and my son decided there was no God on his own. But where do we draw the line? Just teaching religion? What about teaching values, different cultures will have some different values. I could go on and on

I never meant to say that anyone teaches "atheism" but I can see why people would see it that way. I was trying to focus on different people: An atheist may see teaching a child about God as brainwashing or indoctrination, and a theist might see an atheist as not teaching about God as some kind of indoctrination, as well. I am not saying that I necessarily see it that way, but just that some might.

What about when a parent intends from the outset to raise a child to believe in a particular religion? For instance, in Catholic baptism, the parents and godparents make a public declaration that they'll do their best to raise the child to be a Catholic.

Would you say that this crosses the line from "teaching a child about God" to "indoctrination"?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Far too many, unfortunately.

Um... Ok.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

You are speaking of objective things, which is why those that you listed are not opinions. If you averagely go a whole day without speaking a word of what is your opinion, and yes, by the correct understanding of the word, then I would be thrilled.

Ok, but you didn't say that we have alot of opinions; that could hardly be disputed. You claimed that "most of what we perceive and know" is opinion; and what we perceive and know doesn't seem to be a matter of opinion. If I know something, then its not an opinion, because knowledge requires truth and opinions are neither true nor false.

And I don't know how one would teach someone their opinion anyways- yes, I can tell you that broccoli is good, or that I like it (i.e. my opinion), but I can hardly teach it to you in the sense that you then come to share it as well; if you just don't like broccoli, I can try as I might to "teach" you my opinion that it is good, and to no avail.

 

[LuisDantas]

Um... Ok.

Admitedly this is difficult to demonstrate objectively. But there is my own personal testimonial; there is Nathan Phelps; there are lots of people I met personally that were seriously emotionally scarred with a fear of hell. And lots of slightly less obvious examples.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Um... Ok.

Since apparently it wasn't obvious, Luis, I wasn't taking a survey about whether you're capable of providing an example- I was asking that you give me one.