ha‘almah harah: "a young woman is pregnant"

[james2ko]

Link?

Do not have access to an official online source, but here is another Rabbi utilizing the quote from the same source:

Yosef, Moshe and Mashiach, the last redeemer | Beth HaDerech; Messianic Jewish Teachings Online

 

[james2ko]

First of all, "hope" is not synonymous with "expect" in this context. "Expect" means a belief that something will occur. "Hope" means a desire that something should be-- it doesn't necessarily imply an expectation of occurrence.

Just a matter of semantics. But it is essentially the same, my friend.

Second of all, that quote from Sanhedrin is one midrash among many. It is a midrash, not a theological dogma. And it is part of a huge number of Midrashim about the world and the creation and the messiah. There is no reason to think that all the Rabbis even knew that particular midrash, let alone all believed it literally.

I guess I'll never understand how one can be undogmatic about text considered holy and sacred.

Third of all, Midrashim in the Talmud ascribed to bei Eliyahu are of unknown origins, but bear the hallmarks of classic Tannaitic Midrashic composition. There is no evidence to support that they originate in a school of philosophical or mystical thought founded by the prophet Elijah, especially given that there is no evidence that such a school ever existed, let alone transmitted midrashim.

I figured you'd come up with something to discount the Midrash quote. I have several other quotes from Rabbinic sources, but I suspect with your vast knowledge of Rabbinic literature and obvious bias, you'll perpetuate the fallacy of "poisoning the well" of any source I quote.

 

[CMike]

Do not have access to an official online source, but here is another Rabbi utilizing the quote from the same source:

Yosef, Moshe and Mashiach, the last redeemer | Beth HaDerech; Messianic Jewish Teachings Online

It's a Christian site.

 

[james2ko]

It's a Christian site.

It's a Messianic Jewish site.

 

[CMike]

It's a Messianic Jewish site.

That's is a christian site.

 

[CMike]

You mention things the Messiah could not accomplish, except there be an order of fulfillment and time-frame allotted for each. I've already explained this to you.

And if you're honest, you should also acknowledge, that there is a great amount of Divine will and power that must accompany the Messiah, as did Moses; as did Elijah, and so on.

And there is no possible way that every Jew could inhabit Israel, being that the borders would not support them. Especially if you consider the resurrection.

As for tribal lineage, you've not explained it, or supported it with Scripture. And aside from that, you've neither explained how the genealogy can even be authenticated.

I asked Levite, specifically, because you were of no help the first time I asked you. This is the second time.

Sorry I dissaponted you :faint:

Moses had no divine power. Only G-D had divine power.

During the Passover seder we read the extended version of Passover.

Moses is mentioned only once, and only as a "humble servant".

Why?

Because all the power and miracles came from G-D and not Moses.

As far as tribal lineage, below you will see how the Torah says it goes solely by the father.

Numbers - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bamidbar) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

If tribal lineage is unknown than that person is considered part of the general populaton.

The messiah will have no divine power, only G-D has divine power.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

 

[CMike]

So far you've restated your position on Jesus, without going into prophecy, which would be important. I want your position on your messiah. What is your alternative expectation?

Answer my questions to CMike if possible, as well.

Your questions isn't directed to me, however, I have no position on the messiah.

Our prophets give specific acts that the messiah will accomplish via the hand of G-D.

All I have done is quote the prophesies and give the sources. Anyone can read it for themselves.

They are Michah 4:3 and Ezekeil 37.

When those acts occur we will know he is the messiah.

Those acts have not occurred, thus the messiah isn't here yet.

 

[Sleeppy]

Sorry I dissaponted you :faint:

Moses had no divine power. Only G-D had divine power.

During the Passover seder we read the extended version of Passover.

Moses is mentioned only once, and only as a "humble servant".

Why?

Because all the power and miracles came from G-D and not Moses.

As far as tribal lineage, below you will see how the Torah says it goes solely by the father.

Numbers - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bamidbar) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

If tribal lineage is unknown than that person is considered part of the general populaton.

The messiah will have no divine power, only G-D has divine power.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

1) Does it go through the mother, today? What happens when, by God's will, a mother is the only (known) parent?

2) All power comes from God.

3) Jesus called Himself, 'Son of Man.' Adam, the first son of God among men, is still the son of God. Men are sons of God. All creation is of one will; the Father of creation. Do you think God neglects power to His creation; His will, in its intended purpose(s)? I'm not denying God is the source of all power; He is the Almighty. That would be obvious blasphemy. That's the lineage of Mankind, to the Father in Heaven.

4) When man and woman marry, they become one flesh. How do you deny the mother's genetic inheritence to her son, when she is one flesh with her husband? The two are genetic inheritences or of direct genetic influence. In the same manner that Elijah became a father to Elisha; direct spiritual and fleshly/genetic influence and outcome.

 

[CMike]

1) Does it go through the mother, today? What happens when, by God's will, a mother is the only (known) parent?

Then the child is considered to be an Israelite, part of the general population. He has no tribal lineage.

2) All power comes from God.

That's very true. That is one of the reasons that jesus had no divine power.

He was a regular man and died a regular man.

3) Jesus called Himself, 'Son of Man.' Adam, the first son of God among men, is still the son of God. Men are sons of God. All creation is of one will; the Father of creation. Do you think God neglects power to His creation; His will, in its intended purpose(s)? I'm not denying God is the source of all power; He is the Almighty. That would be obvious blasphemy. That's the lineage of Mankind, to the Father in Heaven.

Your point?

4) When man and woman marry, they become one flesh. How do you deny the mother's genetic inheritence to her son, when she is one flesh with her husband? The two are genetic inheritences or of direct genetic influence. In the same manner that Elijah became a father to Elisha; direct spiritual and fleshly/genetic influence and outcome.

G-D said that tribal lineage goes solely via the father. Take it up with G-D if you do not like it..

I showed the chapter in the Torah where this is stated.

 

[Sleeppy]

Then the child is considered to be an Israelite, part of the general population. He has no tribal lineage.




That's very true. That is one of the reasons that jesus had no divine power.

He was a regular man and died a regular man.




Your point?



G-D said that tribal lineage goes solely via the father. Take it up with G-D if you do not like it..

I showed the chapter in the Torah where this is stated.

If it's true, then it's also true that He had divine power. Regular men hold divine power. While Elijah was a regular man, he held divine power, as does every man and prophet and existing creation.

Mary was married to Joseph. So she, including Jesus, assumed Joseph's tribe. Correct?

 

[CMike]

If it's true, then it's also true that He had divine power. Regular men hold divine power. While Elijah was a regular man, he held divine power, as does every man and prophet and existing creation.

Mary was married to Joseph. So she, including Jesus, assumed Joseph's tribe. Correct?

Incorrect.

Women have no tribal lineage.

It goes solely by the father.

I am a kohen (jewish priest) because my father was a priest.

It makes no difference what my mother is as far as tribal lineage.

And Elijah had no divine power.

Only G-D has had divine power.

The red sea did not part because Moses outstretched his arm. The red sea parted because G-D caused it to part.

The mother depends whether someone is jewish or not.

 

[Sleeppy]

Incorrect.

Women have no tribal lineage.

It goes solely by the father.

I am a kohen (jewish priest) because my father was a priest.

It makes no difference what my mother is as far as tribal lineage.

And Elijah had no divine power.

Only G-D has had divine power.

The red sea did not part because Moses outstretched his arm. The red sea parted because G-D caused it to part.

The mother depends whether someone is jewish or not.

Everything else I've seen says otherwise. Thanks anyway.

 

[CMike]

Then you have seen incorrect stuff.

 

[Sleeppy]

Samson
Virgin Birth, Jewish Adoption and Genealogy of Yeshua

 

[sincerly]

Your reply to Sleeppy is below.

An alternative interpretation for what? For Jesus and his alleged fulfillment of prophecies? Yeah, he didn't fulfill them. He was renegade Pharisee turned sectarian leader with delusions of messianism-- which made him no different than a thousand other guys running around Ancient Israel-- and his apocalyptic, millenialist messianist sect outlived him, and might have come to nothing had they not turned to increasing their numbers by proselytizing non-Jews, and eventually transforming themselves into a completely non-Jewish religion.

But nothing either about Jesus himself or about his followers and what became of the religion they built around him, and what they claimed about him and turned him into, has any relevance to actual Jewish messianism.

Originally Posted by sincerly
It has been shown by the Scriptures that the looked for Messiah has come and the Woman at the Well and many of the people of the area attested to the Fact.(and others besides the Apostles/Disciples which HE taught).

HE came unto HIS own and they received HIM not---as was prophesied.

However, What was it that "our messiah is supposed to do" And What is it that you/"we can to make a world worthy of him".????
Also, Why aren't you "we're not really rocking that agenda right now."???
Wasn't that the prophetic role that was given to Abraham's descendants?? To be a Blessing to the Nations/"light to the Gentiles"??

CMike was quite right. Our messiah is supposed to restore the Davidic monarchy, free Jews from non-Jewish rule, return the Jewish People to the Land of Israel, help resolve conflicts between Jews and aid in all Jews better and more faithfully observing the commandments, rededicate the Temple (or, once it was destroyed, rebuild the Temple), and help inaugurate a worldwide age of peace and spiritual advancement and brotherhood.

Jesus did none of those things. Not a single one. There is no proof he was a descendant of David. He didn't restore the monarchy. He didn't help Jews throw off non-Jewish rule-- indeed, his followers ended up being the non-Jewish rulers who oppressed us. He didn't resolve conflicts between Jews, they deepened, and the Temple was destroyed because of sinat chinam (baseless hatred amongst us). He didn't rededicate the Temple, it remained under the control of Sadducees and the corrupted pawns of the Herodian puppet-kings until it was destroyed (and his followers didn't get it rebuilt, nor did he come back from death and rebuild it).

Hi Levite, I apologize for not responding sooner. I want to comment on your response to Sleepy before getting to your response to my post.

I see accusations/opinions, but nothing to substantiate your claims.
Those Jewish Followers of Jesus Christ reasoned with their Jewish Brothers and sisters for three and a half years prior to even beginning to witness the Truth of the Same message being being taught to those who were despised by the leaders of the Jewish Nation.
The recorded facts are that 50 days after the Crucifixion(the day of Pentecost) 3000 of those in attendance acknowledged that Jesus Christ was the looked for/hoped for/expected Messiah.
and this occurred 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion and prior to this "sect" being called "Christians"/followers of the Messiah/Christ. Acts7:6, "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith".

Yes, "eventually" as prophesied in Daniel(in following the pattern of Israel as attested by the prophets) there was a "falling away", But the Truth of the Everlasting Gospel has and will be taught until the return of the same Messiah which was "not received by HIS own" as John(1:11), stated, and Isaiah(52+53), "We esteemed him Not" prophesied---"he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" .

The "SEED" of the woman had to come to make the redemption possible, before HE will return as KING of kings and LORD of lords".

More importantly, he didn't aid all Jews to better and more faithfully observe the commandments: he taught heresies, and his followers ended up becoming apostates, and trying to seduce other Jews into apostasy and heresy.

To the contrary, for three and a half years Jesus Christ taught in all of Judea. It was the leaders of the Jewish Nation who sought to kill HIM for teaching the truths of GOD(Matt.7:28-29), "And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes."
It was the Scribes and pharisees who accused Jesus of breaking the "traditions and commandments of men."(Mark 7:1-13) and Jesus countered that they were NOT keeping the "Commandments of GOD".
The apostasy was with the Jewish Nation and HIS teachings was to show the truth of those ancient Scriptures. Jesus gave parable after parable for the people to see and understand GOD, HIS PURPOSES, AND METHOD OF SALVATION---and they continued to reject. Just as Daniel had prophesied.(9:24-27)
The ultimate "finishing" was in that proclamation of Jesus in Matt.23:38, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

And he didn't inaugurate a worldwide era of peace, brotherhood, and spiritual advancement. The Church mercilessly persecuted anyone it felt was heretical or otherwise undesirable. It fostered oppression, discrimination, pogroms, the Crusades, religious wars across the globe, forced conversions, the Inquisitions, and imperialist conquest of native peoples everywhere Europeans went. The Church kept knowledge even of its own scriptures and interpretations from common people, and plunged the Western World into the Dark Ages. The history of Christianity is the exact inverse of a worldwide era of peace, brotherhood, and spiritual advancement.

That "peaceful" world will be on/in the earth made new. And only those who are in agreement with the GOVERNMENT OF GOD will be among the Redeemed who inhabit it. The Scriptures declare the admittance price is Confession of Sins, Repentance of such actions and submitting to the Will of the FATHER.

As for what we can do to make a world worthy of the messiah coming, we can follow the commandments, we can try to inspire moral acts in non-Jewish peoples, we can rid ourselves of sinat chinam (baseless hatred) and replace it with ahavat chinam (unconditional love), and we can try to bring peace, justice, and an end to poverty and oppression to the world-- thus creating the proper conditions for the messiah to emerge and lead us, showing God that we are worthy of a messiah.

Levite, look back at Ezek.18, that "making" is an individual choice and is only achieved when "one" sees GOD as GOD and has made HIM LORD OF ONE'S LIFE.

And we're not actually doing very well on any of those fronts, if one looks either at the state of the world, or the state of the Jewish People.... We could, and should, be doing much better. We can only hope we will improve, and that our children and their children will do even better than we, and perhaps in the day of their descendants, we will be worthy of the messiah.

Those scriptures teach that "no one" is righteous and there is nothing that one can do which will cause one to be "worthy". The penalty by which one is seen "unworthy" is "Death". Therefore, one has to rely on the previsions/"plan of salvation" which was instituted by the CREATOR AND REDEEMER GOD.

 

[CMike]

Samson
Virgin Birth, Jewish Adoption and Genealogy of Yeshua

So?:sarcastic

 

[Levite]

The recorded facts are that 50 days after the Crucifixion(the day of Pentecost) 3000 of those in attendance acknowledged that Jesus Christ was the looked for/hoped for/expected Messiah...and this occurred 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion and prior to this "sect" being called "Christians"/followers of the Messiah/Christ. Acts7:6, ...But the Truth of the Everlasting Gospel has and will be taught until the return of the same Messiah which was "not received by HIS own" as John(1:11), stated... ...The "SEED" of the woman had to come to make the redemption possible, before HE will return as KING of kings and LORD of lords"...three and a half years Jesus Christ taught in all of Judea. It was the leaders of the Jewish Nation who sought to kill HIM for teaching the truths of GOD(Matt.7:28-29)...the Scribes and pharisees who accused Jesus of breaking the "traditions and commandments of men."(Mark 7:1-13)...
The apostasy was with the Jewish Nation and HIS teachings was to show the truth of those ancient Scriptures....Matt.23:38....

And all of that, BTW, would be the heresy and apostasy I mentioned before.

In any case, quoting Christian scriptures means nothing to me. Jews don't accept them as either authoritative or sacred. Not only don't we accept any of the theological claims or narratives, we don't accept most of the historical or social claims made in them, either.

That "peaceful" world will be on/in the earth made new. And only those who are in agreement with the GOVERNMENT OF GOD will be among the Redeemed who inhabit it. The Scriptures declare the admittance price is Confession of Sins, Repentance of such actions and submitting to the Will of the FATHER.

In other words, he didn't do what the messiah was supposed to do, and you're waiting around to see if he'll do it if he were to come back.

..."eventually" as prophesied in Daniel...Daniel had prophesied.(9:24-27) ... and Isaiah(52+53)... look back at Ezek.18, that "making" is an individual choice and is only achieved when "one" sees GOD as GOD and has made HIM LORD OF ONE'S LIFE.

Christological eisegetic readings of Jewish scripture also don't mean anything to us. We read those scriptures very differently, and the way Christianity seeks to make them mean is simply incompatible with Judaism.

Those scriptures teach that "no one" is righteous and there is nothing that one can do which will cause one to be "worthy". The penalty by which one is seen "unworthy" is "Death". Therefore, one has to rely on the previsions/"plan of salvation" which was instituted by the CREATOR AND REDEEMER GOD.

And nothing in that is remotely compatible with Jewish thought. Nor, for that matter are those concepts at all theologically appealing to the Jewish theological worldview.

Personally, I find the notion of a God who would condemn His creations to inherent unworthiness because of the very imperfections with which He created them, and damn them all to eternal torment unless they accept being saved by no effort of their own, but only the human sacrifice of a divine avatar to be extraordinarily distasteful. I honestly have no concept of what would be theologically attractive about it.

 

[Sleeppy]

So?:sarcastic

So, as I said. Joseph, who married Mary, righteously called Jesus his son. According to God's word, Jesus must be of the seed and tribe of David.

 

[Sleeppy]

And all of that, BTW, would be the heresy and apostasy I mentioned before.

In any case, quoting Christian scriptures means nothing to me. Jews don't accept them as either authoritative or sacred. Not only don't we accept any of the theological claims or narratives, we don't accept most of the historical or social claims made in them, either.



In other words, he didn't do what the messiah was supposed to do, and you're waiting around to see if he'll do it if he were to come back.



Christological eisegetic readings of Jewish scripture also don't mean anything to us. We read those scriptures very differently, and the way Christianity seeks to make them mean is simply incompatible with Judaism.



And nothing in that is remotely compatible with Jewish thought. Nor, for that matter are those concepts at all theologically appealing to the Jewish theological worldview.

Personally, I find the notion of a God who would condemn His creations to inherent unworthiness because of the very imperfections with which He created them, and damn them all to eternal torment unless they accept being saved by no effort of their own, but only the human sacrifice of a divine avatar to be extraordinarily distasteful. I honestly have no concept of what would be theologically attractive about it.

Your argument is weak and unfounded. Will Israel King the Messiah after He assembles the entirety of Israel, both dead and living, into the borders? Or will it happen after all nations, dead and living, are sprinkled with clean water and worshipping the Father? After which fulfillment is He considered King? So far, Jesus has converted much of the world into Israel's favor. And these nations, full of worshippers of one God, the Father, have become the sanctuaries of Jews, not only in Israel's original borders, but in the entire Earth. Daniel 12, speaks of the rising, both of righteousness and of ignorance. How then, could this occur, unless the Messiah increases, and makes efficient not only Israel's borders, but opens the heavens/space as well? And how long will the teaching of peace, mentioned in verse 3, last before He is King?

 

[Levite]

Your argument is weak and unfounded. Will Israel King the Messiah after He assembles the entirety of Israel, both dead and living, into the borders? Or will it happen after all nations, dead and living, are sprinkled with clean water and worshipping the Father? After which fulfillment is He considered King? So far, Jesus has converted much of the world into Israel's favor. And these nations, full of worshippers of one God, the Father, have become the sanctuaries of Jews, not only in Israel's original borders, but in the entire Earth. Daniel 12, speaks of the rising, both of righteousness and of ignorance. How then, could this occur, unless the Messiah increases, and makes efficient not only Israel's borders, but opens the heavens/space as well? And how long will the teaching of peace, mentioned in verse 3, last before He is King?

My argument will always be weak and unfounded from your point of view, because you have already decided what the correct answer to everything is. Which is only to be understood: you're a Christian.

But your arguments will always be equally empty from my point of view, because I'm a Jew. Whatever our answers may be, we've already decided what the correct answer isn't-- and it's the same answer you've decided is correct.